Change and unify colors for stadium/track/pitch to be less dominating #2071
Conversation
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Mostly +1. The only problem I see is education/hospital color - but since hospital has its own icon and school/university might have it too (drafts are ready, but PRs and debates are still ahead), maybe we could start treating this color more generally as "big amenity" probably (or just let it be used for more objects). See also #1450 (comment) and #1624. |
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When track and pitch have the same colour you cannot distinguish them when mapped over each other. Your example shows a modern mapping of a multipolygon for the athletics track, leaving room for the ball pitch. There are still plenty such places where the track is just a line (that renders as an area in carto). Similar problem when sports_centre and stadium have the same expression, what when a stadium is built on the grounds of the sports centre? I share @kocio-pl's consideration in not overloading the current education/hospital colour with unrelated features. I agree that sports need some treatment, and I repeat what I said about golf in #2069, that moving towards outline rendering for all sorts of campuses might bring progress. |
Since these are drawn with an outline you can always distinguish them - you just cannot identify them by color - which IMO is fine for a general purpose map style.
Could you point to examples please?
They are not unrelated - a lot of sport centers are part of educational or medical facilities, all of these are usually public or semi-public but do not primarily serve commercial purposes (so landuse=commercial does not fit).
I don't think so - current boundary rendering in this style is very bold, takes a lot of space and clutters the map and it only works at a very limited range of scales (with area sizes from a few ten to a few hundred pixels at normal rendering resolution) - at smaller sizes it is just noise and at larger sizes it is just confusing. I would strongly recommend not using this for typically non-boundary features. |
A stadium inside a sport_centre |
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Given that this change would remove any chance of making light yellow mean anything specific - it would be a good idea to rename it from |
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stadium and sport_centre overlapping does not seem to look any worse than before: Regarding color name, yes, that would likey be a good idea - although i would probably name it I am not really partial towards this unification by the way but as everyone knows there is very little room to squeeze in more area colors. Looking at the urban context this essentially leaves two options for reducing complexity or adding new features:
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@polarbearing I would opt for it, with reasoning exactly like in the @imagico post - road redesign showed us clearly that we're basically out of colors and amenity campuses are basically more like landuses - they deserve being shown, because it explains how the space is used. One "campus" I still have no clear idea what to do is landuse=religious. Maybe some kind of grey would do? |
Yes a slightly darker gray than residential would be good. |
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I'm still in favour of rendering all campuses in yellow, independent of the type of campus. |
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OK, yellow would be good for me too. And I would rather name it |
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It does not really matter how you label it. The important thing is not to use it arbitrarily as a catch-all for everything that does not fit into any other category. And things that have similarities to for example landuse=commercial or landuse=industrial should better be rendered in those colors. |
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If they belong to mentioned landuses, they're already here and we have no problem with them. But what about this orphanage for example: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/304204007 It is in fact very similar to the schools below, yet if not the fence, its area shape would be unknown, no matter how big it is. And such campus can be quite big: |
I'm fine with that - we're not going to render all area features possible. |
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Sure, but I'd like to see the structure of a given place and some of them are very common, like police/fire station or social/cultural/religious/sport amenities. I don't advocate for amenity=* area (catch all), BTW. |
+1 |
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I called them 'Societal amenities' in #1624, and would be happy to see their areas rendered, if not as boundaries then as campus-yellow. We have icons on many of them meanwhile to distinguish them, we would need to push the school/univ/kids #120 eventually. And as @kocio-pl's big campus shows, we might want them consistently with scaling labels. |
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Changed the color name now as suggested by @polarbearing. |
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I'm not in favor of using the same color for educational institutions like schools, universities and for hospitals, and now also for sports related features? Doesn't make more sense than leaving them white. Hospitals might often even be universities, but sporting facilities should be kept distinct, I'd rather prefer a lighter variant of the current "blueish-green" if the current tone is considered too heavy. |
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I don't see room for bright green tones that would not be heavily confusing with various vegetation landcover colors. |
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2016-03-08 20:25 GMT+01:00 Christoph Hormann notifications@github.com:
aren't the latter all green yellowish, while sport is blueish? |
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So one thing to decide is if we want to use the current edu/medical yellow for more societal amenities at all, the second question is if we do so, do we want to expand that to leisure/sports features. We might open a separate ticket for the first question. (done: #2087) For the sports grounds, we also need to consider that mappers also use
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I wonder why pitches have an outline, while stadium and sports_centre don't? |
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From what i saw there seems to be a lot of tagging for the renderer going on w.r.t. sports_centre where people don't use that tag to avoid the strong color. To me the above example quite clearly looks like it qualifies as sports_centre. I did not look into other tags that could be rendered in addition, there seems to be both It could be considered keeping the strong green for stadium only - however at the moment it seems stadium is often used as a simple wrapper for pitch/track combinations without substantial seating which does not really match the tag definition. |
yes this is a tagging error I fix when I find it Thus we might lighten the sports_centre only, and leave the stadium stronger? |
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I admit that I really have no idea what to think about this change, so to date I left no comments about proposed change. On one hand current sport areas rendering is poor and it is improved by this change. On the other hand I am not convinced by generic amenity, in fact I would prefer to drop rendering hospitals and universities as the same color. In case of making a new map I would just do not render residential/retail/commercial landuses separately what would free some colors. It would be easily possible to color education areas and hospitals with separate colours and maybe still leave some colors to be used for cases like sport facilities. But in this case it would be probably nearly impossible to stop rendering landuse, colour pool is limited. So maybe yellow for generic amenity is not so bad? Or maybe abandon idea of rendering some amenities as areas? |
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I still like using current school/hospital yellow for general "campus", because with such definition it become clear what those two have in common. I would not use it for general "amenity" currently, because I'm not sure if it would make sense for such a broad and not clearly defined type. However if we look closer and learn that "campus" is basically just any "amenity area", it would be a lot easier than making a list of campus types (like "sport campus" for stadium). Dropping would make the map less clear IMO - I already don't like that the churchyards don't have a color, because they can take the same space as local school. |
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Another possibility - if you look at the colors in #1991 (comment) garages and aerodrome could be unified into a general 'transportation' landuse or the aerodrome color could be re-purposed into a general public amenities color while keeping hospital/education as a distinct color. Not sure if any of these options is better though. |
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I have already proposed unification of "transportation area" for airports/heliports, ferry terminals and train stations - garages look to me more like resting area (depot) for some devices than real transportation, but I wouldn't mind to make them look just like residential areas and reuse this color somewhere else. Sure, we could use this color for general amenities, but still my question remains - why hospital and school have the same color then, what do they have in common? If they are both special campuses, we should also reuse it for other special campuses, like police or religious and use garage color for any other amenity areas. It could also work nicely with complex situation (as suggested here by @polarbearing) with recreation_ground (like general amenity area) and stadium/sports_centre (like special campus). EDIT: garages color could stay like it is now if we start thinking that they are too general amenity-like area. |
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IMHO we shouldn't assimilate garages (very common feature, not significant , IMHO more storage than transportation related) with airports (rarer, significant feature) I also don't think that hospitals and universities have to get or keep a common color |
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what do they have in common?
aren't churchyards rendered the same as christian cemeteries? Seems right to me |
They are campuses.
I guess not - both landuse=churchyard and (more general, for other religions) landuse=religious are currently not rendered in osm-carto at all. |
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for schools it is rather atypical to have a campus in my area (although they have dedicated grounds outside buildings), and also in case of a university or hospital not all associated open air areas are campuses. A campus is a specific type of spatial organization (park that connects several buildings of the same institution , typically a college or university in Northern America or something copying this concept, e.g. Apple campus in Cupertino). I believe having an open air space that connects different buildings and is part of a common facility is no enough similarity to justify rendering it the same, you can find these criteria fulfilled in a lot of different settings, e.g. military, monastery, industrial, airports and whatever...
the tag amenity=graveyard is rendered, that's a synonym I believe "religious" is not a landuse in my view, but rather an attribute that can occur with any landuse, so I'm fine with ignoring this tag here |
Sounds reasonable to me. What are your positive propositions/guidelines regarding school, hospital and other amenity areas then (if you have any)?
See here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dchurchyard |
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I agree we could somehow render the areas of certain features, but I would avoid the word campus, and I wouldn't put education and healthcare in the same group
this should clearly be a proposal, it even has contradictions in its definition (the linked wp article says that these are mainly graveyards, while the wiki states that graveyards are excluded) |
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amenity=graveyard is a long-standing tag for small cemeteries, in particular around places of worship. landuse=churchyard, however, was the ducktagger's response to landuse=religious, limiting the tag to one particular religion. landuse=religious was already proposed to be rendered in trac and again in #771, where it was rejected with only 1.6k uses, and for definition issues that have been fixed. It is growing in popularity, we have now over 7.3k, so that should be reconsidered (despite @dieterdreist not liking it ;-) ) |
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@dieterdreist Anything more specific? If we reuse garages color, how would you assign those two colors for different amenity areas? |
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To me this looks like an improvement. As no alternatives have been proposed, I'm going to accept this PR. Of course, this is not a final choice, and other rendering suggestions are always welcome. |
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OK, could somebody please render my example from above? Does this now open the door to render { community_centre/social_facility/police, hostel/hotel/motel, museum, research_institute } campus the same? |
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The change does not look big here: |
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The F-L-J-Stadion remains recognisable since the whole campus is tagged as landuse=recreation_ground. |
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the bigger labels look much better, the color change doesn't look good IMHO, there's no logical connection between the stadium and a school or university cheers, |
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@math1985 - thanks for merging. To help further discourse here an updated rendering of the current area color set: |
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2016-07-07 11:41 GMT+02:00 Christoph Hormann notifications@github.com:
you're missing the amenity areas. E.g. hospitals, unis and schools, police. |
That is 'societal amenities' now: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/landcover.mss#L49 |
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2016-07-07 14:26 GMT+02:00 Christoph Hormann notifications@github.com:
thank you and sorry for overlooking this. Is there a definition what |
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The term societal amenities was coined in #1624, though sports facilities were not part of the original concept. |
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Could we have an outline for stadiums? They are now nearly invisible. See e.g. |
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@Klumbumbus I added this request to my #2388 |
This change replaces the very strong and dark color for stadium/sports_centre with the bright education/hospital color and unifies track/pitch into an intermediate green tone.
This is based on the following considerations:
The line color for track/pitch was also brightened a bit because contrast to stadium is already strong with the new colors and this way mapped barriers can be better distinguished from plain edges.