Enable AB/TAG to remove one of their members #986
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@@ -1322,15 +1322,38 @@ Verifiable Random Selection Procedure</h5> | |
| The incomplete terms are assigned in result order. | ||
| </ol> | ||
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| <h5 id="AB-TAG-removal"> | ||
| Removing AB or TAG members</h5> | ||
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| Individual participants of the [=Advisory Board=] or the [=Technical Architecture Group=] | ||
| can be <dfn export lt="remove|removal">removed</dfn> from those groups | ||
| if they are found by their peers | ||
| to be grossly neglecting their duties, | ||
| or to be acting in a way that seriously hampers the group's ability to function normally. | ||
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| A chair of the [=AB=] or [=TAG=] <em class=rfc2119>must</em> hold a hearing | ||
| on the potential [=removal=] of a participant | ||
| if requested by at least three of the participants in the group. | ||
| After giving the individual in question | ||
| an opportunity to defend themselves, | ||
| a vote on the proposed [=removal=] is held. | ||
| If at least three quarters of the participants in the group, | ||
| excluding the individual who is the subject of such vote, | ||
| then vote in favor of the proposal, | ||
| the individual's seat on [=AB=] or [=TAG=] is [=vacated=] immediately. | ||
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Contributor
There was a problem hiding this comment. Is "holding a different opinion" or "preventing a Council from reaching a decision by vote" potentially something that could be considered "hampering the group's ability to function"? If so, I'd be (a tiny bit) concerned about an in extremis potential abuse of this mechanism to evict an AB or TAG member in order to remove them from a Council (assuming that the opportunity for dismissal had passed) in order to unlock a Council vote. It's complex to do the maths on this but I suspect that there could be a scenario in which a majority of a Council could not be found but a three-quarters majority of the AB or the TAG could be found to remove one of them. For practical purposes, this is a highly theoretical, i.e. unlikely to ever happen, matter of minutia, so doesn't seem like reasonable grounds for blocking the PR, but it would be good to know if anyone did work through the voting numbers given this three quarter majority requirement, and other contexts in which AB or TAG might participate in votes. There was a problem hiding this comment. @nigelmegitt I'd refer you to the documentation on Councils, as the situation you describe would not really make sense in the context of how councils are run. It's entirely possible for a council to proceed if someone (or multiple people but not enough to amount to overturning a vote) holds a minority opinion. You can find the details here: https://www.w3.org/policies/process/20231103/#council-deliberations If someone decided to be so disruptive to any AB/TAG process, council or otherwise, that the bodies couldn't conduct their expected responsibilities, that seems to be a valid premise to initiate this procedure. For it to pass, there is still the requirement of 3/4 of the group voting in favour, which is a significant bar. I'd add that in the case where someone is this disruptive, there is an impact on the membership as well, even if the membership did vote for them. The minutes for today aren't available yet, but I will share what I said in support of this change: this is an edge case, and hopefully the most edgy of cases. There are a million steps that come before a decision like this, and I hope we never have to use it, but it is good to have it in the situation where we need it.
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Another observation:
Making someone not be a AB/TAG member anymore doesn't remove them from the council. Now, it would possible to form a new council without the excluded individual(s) by using the following provision:
but if that's just to get rid of a person or two, that wouldn't be a case of "falls so low as to hinder effective and balanced deliberations", and would be pretty solid grounds for escalation / appeal.
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There was a problem hiding this comment.
@wareid Sure, but that's a slightly different scenario. I am considering if the Council is split, and removal of one person causes their opinion to become a minority opinion. And the point is that a Council has a different membership to either TAG or AB on their own, so TAG or AB could hypothetically remove someone even if their removal would not have happened had that decision been made by the collective members of the Council. However @frivoal makes a good point that removal from TAG/AB doesn't imply removal from a currently operating Council, which has its own distinct removal mechanism. Is it worth raising an issue to clarify that removal of a member from TAG/AB does not remove them from any Council of which they are currently a member? At the moment this is implied by omission, but it could be noted explicitly for the avoidance of doubt. I completely agree this is an exceedingly edgy edge case, and as I noted, more a question of wanting to know someone thought this sort of scenario through, rather than blocking the PR. Which we now seem to have done in this thread 😀.
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There was a problem hiding this comment. Agree this is worth clarifying.
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Author
There was a problem hiding this comment. Let's follow up about this aspect in #1006 |
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| <h5 id="AB-TAG-vacated"> | ||
| Elected Groups Vacated Seats</h5> | ||
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| An [=Advisory Board=] or [=TAG=] participant's seat is <dfn lt="vacated|vacant">vacated</dfn> when: | ||
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| the participant resigns, or | ||
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| the participant is [=removed=], or | ||
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Contributor
There was a problem hiding this comment. Is it not the intent that this would replace the ability below (in lines 1362-1366) for the CEO to dismiss the participant? I would have expected those lines to be removed.
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There was a problem hiding this comment. I strongly object. It's one thing to create a supplemental mechanism for one body to remove one of their members, to prevent a situation that has yet to happen, as a way to afford multiple paths to resolving problems so you aren't bottlenecked on one single path, and it's another thing entirely to strip the existing authority. This was presented in the 20 March AB meeting as a supplemental mechanism. Furthermore, W3C has a Board of Directors who oversees the CEO and their actions.
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There was a problem hiding this comment. I'm not sure how this was presented as a supplemental mechanism - the minutes haven't been released yet so I can't link to them, but I said "I am def in favor of switching this to AB itself managing", and there were several others who I thought agreed. How is the Board (who have precisely this 3/4-vote-of-its-own-membership-to-eject rule) and their oversight of the CEO relevant? Or maybe more to the point: in what case would it be critical for the CEO to be able to eject an AB member, without the support of 3/4 of the rest of the AB? There was a problem hiding this comment. There is an issue of the math of such voting. It was suggested to be a positive thing to have “high bar” of 75% of the group for removing someone. In a group the size of the AB, it would take 8 people to remove someone. However, on the other side of it, in order for someone to stay, they would just need to convince 2 people not to vote them out. This dividing of votes amongst a small group would not just be incredibly demoralizing and/or encourage cliques or factions, relying on this kind of voting requirements could make it even more political and difficult to remove someone, even for cause. There was a problem hiding this comment. On the issue of the AB proposal to removing a right/responsibility of the CEO: The Process states: “The Advisory Board is distinct from the Board of Directors and has no decision-making authority within W3C; its role is strictly advisory.” (with an exception of serving on councils) and "Oversight over the Team, budgeting, and other business decisions, is provided by the W3C Board of Directors, rather than managed directly by the Process.” Adding the power of decision-making so extreme as to reverse the elected decisions of Members and/or to change the role or responsibility of the CEO would be radical changes the nature and role of the AB (moving away from advising to deciding) and taking over part of the role and power from the Board. There was a problem hiding this comment. cultural differences and liability It is because this that it is possible that someone who is removed by other members might even consider taking legal action for something like bias or career harm so there is also an issue of liability. The neutral role of the CEO, as the Process currently assigns the responsibility, does mean questions of bias are greatly reduced (no burden of re-election, not a business competitor, acting for the W3C as a whole, not paid by one company, etc.). There was a problem hiding this comment. I strongly feel this is a radical, contentious and weighty proposal for a problem that has not happened. No CEO has yet needed to remove an AB or TAG member so the problem this proposal seeks to address has not actually happened. However, we know that there are longstanding and repeated examples of business competition within W3C or attempts to stop or slow our work. Any new ability for factions to be able to block or remove potential competitors or to prevent differing interests from also serving on elected bodies should be tread very carefully. New methods which would make our governing bodies more contentious, factional or political should absolutely be avoided. Creating new processes to overturn elected decisions of Members in an increasingly disengaged Membership also seems injudicious at this time. I would suggest that any addition to allow AB to vote on removing other AB members should be added to the Process, only after it has been shown 1. to be a problem that has actively happened that needs such a heavy solution and 2. with the very clear and direct support of Members for this removal their elected choices and 3. after a review which can identify the problem, what worked and what didn’t, legal risks (eg: wrongful termination or career harm) etc to find the best solutions- not before. There was a problem hiding this comment. Finally, and I think most concerning, there should be great care taken in using access to the levers of power. Judges and those in power are expected to recuse themselves from conflicts of interest. In other countries it might be said as a group "must not be judge and party". The AB has immense power due to their access to W3C Process through control of the Process CG. It seems to me, any proposal by the AB to use it’s access to and functional control over the Process to increase its own power, change its role, or to suggest any adjustment which removes power from any other group or person must absolutely be done rarely, addressed with great seriousness and I would hope, great prudence. I do not see a compelling need for either adding to AB power (moving from "advising" to "deciding" in a more Board-like role) nor to remove from them, a CEO power which impacts all other Groups. In this instance, there seems to be great pressure to impose this change by the next revision. I feel the benefits of this change are not at all demonstrated as urgently needed. This power has never been used, I would question the urgency to change it. I do not believe the AB should use its power over the Process to push this though while there are so many questions and it is not urgent. There was a problem hiding this comment. My position is this power should not be added to the Process at all until it can be demonstrated it would be:
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There was a problem hiding this comment. To respond briefly to your last questions:
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| an Advisory Board or TAG participant changes affiliations | ||
| such that the <a href="#AB-TAG-constraints">Advisory Board and TAG participation constraints</a> are no longer met, | ||
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There should be explicit detail here about who is invited to that hearing; both who must be invited (I'd expect the relevant body, including the individual) and who is allowed. Also, whether this is publicized or not. (I would expect not, but it shouild be explicit that it's confidential, perhaps?
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created #1007 to follow up on that