Skip to content
1 change: 1 addition & 0 deletions .github/CODEOWNERS
Original file line number Diff line number Diff line change
Expand Up @@ -555,6 +555,7 @@ pep-0677.rst @gvanrossum
pep-0678.rst @iritkatriel
pep-0679.rst @pablogsal
pep-0680.rst @encukou
pep-0682.rst @mdickinson
# ...
# pep-0754.txt
# ...
Expand Down
183 changes: 183 additions & 0 deletions pep-0682.rst
Original file line number Diff line number Diff line change
@@ -0,0 +1,183 @@
PEP: 682
Title: Format Specifier for Signed Zero
Author: John Belmonte <john@neggie.net>
Sponsor: Mark Dickinson <dickinsm@gmail.com>
Discussions-To:
Status: Draft
Type: Standards Track
Content-Type: text/x-rst
Created: 29-Jan-2022
Python-Version: 3.11
Post-History:


Abstract
========

Though ``float`` and ``Decimal`` types can represent `signed zero`_, in many fields
of mathematics, negative zero is surprising or unwanted -- especially
in the context of displaying an (often rounded) numerical result. This PEP
proposes an extension to the `string format specification`_, allowing negative
zero to be normalized to positive zero.

.. _`signed zero`: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signed_zero
.. _`string format specification`: https://docs.python.org/3/library/string.html#formatstrings


Motivation
==========

Here is negative zero:

.. code-block:: pycon

>>> x = -0.
>>> x
-0.0

When formatting a number, negative zero can result from rounding. Assuming
the user's intention is truly to discard precision, the distinction between
negative and positive zero of the rounded result might be considered an
unwanted artifact:

.. code-block:: pycon

>>> for x in (.002, -.001, .060):
... print(f'{x: .1f}')
0.0
-0.0
0.1

There are various approaches to clearing the sign of a negative zero. It
can be achieved without a conditional by adding positive zero:

.. code-block:: pycon

>>> x = -0.
>>> x + 0.
0.0

To normalize negative zero when formatting, it is necessary to perform
a redundant (and error-prone) pre-rounding of the input:

.. code-block:: pycon

>>> for x in (.002, -.001, .060):
... print(f'{round(x, 1) + 0.: .1f}')
0.0
0.0
0.1
Comment on lines +63 to +69
Copy link
Contributor Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

By the way, when code-block:: pycon is used, I noticed that the official rendering applies a proportional font to >>> and ... specifically, which looks rather odd and affects indent alignment.

Screen Shot 2022-02-09 at 8 35 43 AM

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Hmm, this isn't ideal. It's a pythondotorg styling problem, I'd imagine - and hard to fix currently.

A

Copy link
Contributor Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Grep shows only one other PEP using code-block:: pycon, so there's no safety in numbers. I'll remove the usage for now, as part of #2317.

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Why would it be "pycon", and not "python"? It seems like all of the other PEPs don't specify a language, so I think you're right in removing it.

Copy link
Member

@AA-Turner AA-Turner Feb 9, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Why would it be "pycon", and not "python"

pycon is the Pygments lexer for python console text, versus python which is for scripts. Semantically pycon is correct here, although I don't know the exact difference between the two.

It seems like all of the other PEPs don't specify a language

Support for specifying languages was only added very recently (by adding Pygments to the requirements file) -- as a PEP editor I would strongly encourage explicitness in language as it makes reading PEPs easier with correctly highlighted code.

A

Copy link
Member

@CAM-Gerlach CAM-Gerlach Feb 15, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

A bit late now, sorry (I was invited to visit the SpaceX Starship production and launch site in Texas and thus was unavailable for the past week) but I can fully confirm everything @AA-Turner said, which was the basis of my initial implemented suggestion. In addition to the reasons he mentioned, being explicit about the language in the code block is also ensures the block will be highlighted correct regardless of what we decide to do in terms of the default syntax highlighter (none, auto, Python, etc). If pycon is problematic, then the correct approach here is to just use python instead, not remove this entirely.

Copy link
Contributor Author

@belm0 belm0 Feb 15, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Thank you-- while we did revert the pycon block annotations for now, I agree that accurate block annotation is desirable and we'd like all the PEP documents to be doing that.

Summary from the time of the decision (#2317 (comment)):

  • the console-specific formatting looks great with the new rendering system for peps.python.org
  • however, rendering on the standard pep site is botched. @AA-Turner notes it may be hard to fix. (I'd be happy to help if it's feasible.)
  • there is only one other PEP so far using pycon
  • it seems we'll need a script to convert console blocks in existing PEP's anyway, so perhaps no need to put this PEP on the bleeding edge

Copy link
Member

@CAM-Gerlach CAM-Gerlach Feb 15, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Yes, but as I noted there, AFAIK all this is specific to the pycon highlighter and not just simply using explicit .. code-block markup which many PEPs are now using; simply using the python highlighter instead should fix the issue (unless you've confirmed it doesn't, but I didn't find any mention of that here nor there). And I am not aware of plans for batch-converting all old PEPs to use the new explicit language markup, except in cases on active/process PEPs where the highlighting is widely off (wrong language, etc) but there's no reason not to be explicit and correct in new ones as @AA-Turner says, unless it is not compatible with both renderers.

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

batch-converting all old PEPs to use the new explicit language markup

I have avoided this topic as I don't want to spark a discussion. My current opinion is we should leave implicit literal block syntax as it is in most places, but update all cases where the language is not Python. This opinion is subject to change several times per arbitrary time period.

This probably means we wouldn't update to pycon here on a retroactive sweep.

typefaces

another debate for another time ;)

A

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I have avoided this topic as I don't want to spark a discussion. My current opinion is we should leave implicit literal block syntax as it is in most places, but update all cases where the language is not Python. This opinion is subject to change several times per arbitrary time period.

I share this opinion as well, and am willing to help implement if and when the time comes for this, though I think it could be limited to not include withdrawn, superceded, and otherwise inactive PEPs. For new PEPs I would favor the .. code-block:: python syntax for all code blocks, which I believe is your viewpoint as well.


What we would like instead is a first-class option to normalize negative
zero, on top of everything else that numerical string formatting already
offers.


Rationale
=========

There are use cases where negative zero is unwanted in formatted number
output -- arguably it's the more common case. Expanding the format
specification is the best way to support this because number formatting
already incorporates rounding, and the normalization of negative zero must
happen after rounding.

While it is possible to pre-round and normalize a number before formatting,
it's tedious and prone to error if the rounding doesn't precisely match
that of the format spec. Furthermore, functions that wrap formatting would
find themselves having to parse format specs to extract the precision
information. For example, consider how this utility for formatting
one-dimensional numerical arrays would be complicated by such pre-rounding:

.. code-block:: python

def format_vector(v, format_spec='8.2f'):
"""Format a vector (any iterable) using given per-term format string."""
return f"[{','.join(f'{term:{format_spec}}' for term in v)}]"

The solution must be opt-in, because we can't change the behavior of
programs that may be expecting or relying on negative zero when formatting
numbers.

The proposed extension is intentionally ``[sign][z]`` rather than
``[sign[z]]``. The default for ``sign`` (``-``) is not widely known or
explicitly written, so this avoids everyone having to learn it just to use
the ``z`` option.
Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

This is a matter of draughting, so you're well within your rights as author to ignore. It does feel a slight jump in topic though -- the previous paragraphs discuss the format specification in the round, and why the solution must be invisible to those not using it, etc. This paragraph though skips detail of the current format specification or grammar of the mini-langauge itself, going straight into the nested vs sibiling approach.

A possible solution would be to combine this paragraph with the preceeding, and say something along the lines of the solution must be opt in, and given that the negative option is the default we can't link the two, moving the detail of the grammar to the specification.

Another solution is to move this entire paragraph to the specification -- this could be argued to be explanation of the choices in the specification rather than rationale for the chage itself.

Copy link
Contributor Author

@belm0 belm0 Feb 5, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Thank you. This is related to the discussion with CAM on section ordering: #2295 (comment). I originally wrote the rationale section intending that it support the decisions of the specification, and it was placed after the specification.

this could be argued to be explanation of the choices in the specification rather than rationale for the change itself.

Indeed, but as CAM cited from PEP 1:

"The rationale fleshes out the specification by describing why particular design decisions were made."

This suggests that the rational supports the specification, and is not merely a rationale for the change itself. If it does support the specification, logically it should follow that section. I wish that the guidelines on section ordering gave me such leeway.

Possible resolutions, with my preference first:

  1. move Rationale after Specification (perhaps naming it "Specification Rationale" for clarity)
  2. move some rationale text into the specification, as you suggest. (My view is that it makes the specification less concise, and I was happy to detail these things in another section.)

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Thanks for the extracts, I missed that discussion.

My own opinion is that clarity of expression is more important than adherence to the "rules". (That said, the "rules" exist for a reason!). I've also never been entirely sure of the difference between Motivation and Rationale.

I'd say flip the order if it makes the most sense.

@CAM-Gerlach -- would you have a strong objection to this?

A

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

My actual suggestion was to not include this paragraph, the one following, and optionally the one preceding it in the Rationale at all:

Finally, you can make your last couple paragraphs separate subsections in the Rejected Ideas section (and maybe the opt-out too), since they each discuss why a particular alternative was not adopted, along with any you might add based on my suggestions above, and any others suggest.

They are rather detailed and implementation-level (as @AA-Turner noticed), and refer to why specific potential alternatives were not adopted, which is exactly what belongs in the Rejected Ideas section (with subheadings for each separate idea)—which, indeed, goes after the Specification, where you want them.

This just leaves the current mention of prior art (and any you add), the brief high-level rationale of the core design decision, and the counterpoint to why pre-rounding instead wouldn't work (the latter of which, if you really wanted, you could consider moving to Motivation or as a separate rejected idea), which makes much more sense as an introduction to the specification. If you prefer, you could also consider re-organizing those sub-parts a bit to put the pre-rounding approach first (why the status quo doesn't work), prior art section second (how did other languages tackle the problem) and the high-level description of your design last, which then smoothy outlines the rationale that led to the overall idea of the proposal, which then leads into the specification itself.

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Moving the Rationale after the Specification sounds good to me; I agree that clarity beats strict adherence to the rules.

@AA-Turner

I've also never been entirely sure of the difference between Motivation and Rationale.

Me neither, but there are two clearly distinct discussion items needed in a PEP like this: (1) the motivation for making a change (any change) in the first place, independent of the actual proposed solution, and (2) the reasons for choosing the particular solution that's being proposed from amongst other possible solutions. My best reading of PEP 12 is that these correspond to the Motivation and Rationale sections, respectively. And then if the Rationale section precedes the Specification section, it's a bit awkward to be referring to details of a specification that hasn't been presented yet.

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

(2) the reasons for choosing the particular solution that's being proposed from amongst other possible solutions.

As I've been mentioning, the high level reasoning that led to the solution goes in the Rationale section, but the specific reasons why other possible solutions were not selected, and those dealing with the details of the specification, belong in the Rejected Ideas section, which goes after the Specification section. Is there a reason you'd rather not use that section for the more specific alternatives and details of the specification, while still keeping a short high-level rationale and comparison of prior art (which, certainly, should go before proposing what we're doing, its "prior" art after all) before? That seems like a good compromise that moves the stuff that you and Adam identified that doesn't really belong before the specification, after it, while still keeping the stuff that leads into it before and following PEP 1 and PEP 12 on the Rationale section itself?

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

Is there a reason you'd rather not use that section for the more specific alternatives and details of the specification

No - I'll step out of this and leave the wrangling to you, Adam and John. I don't really care much about the exact order of the sections or whether there's strict adherence to PEP 12 or not - I care much more that the resulting text is coherent and is meaningful when read from top to bottom.

Copy link
Member

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I also don't have a strong opinion, having said my piece above!

I don't really care much about the exact order of the sections or whether there's strict adherence to PEP 12 or not - I care much more that the resulting text is coherent and is meaningful when read from top to bottom.

Seconded, although perhaps verboten for a pep editor to say :P

A

Copy link
Contributor Author

@belm0 belm0 Feb 6, 2022

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

the high level reasoning that led to the solution goes in the Rationale section, but the specific reasons why other possible solutions were not selected, and those dealing with the details of the specification, belong in the Rejected Ideas section

I would use the Rejected Ideas section if there was an idea that had legs and was actually rejected. To apply an opposite polarity to every design decision and render it as a rejected idea seems a little contrived. The items currently documented in Rationale, for the most part, had no reasonable alternatives-- and I touch on why that is for each. A (fictitious) example of something I'd put into Rejected Ideas would be "We explored automatically inferring suppression of negative zero based on whether the input was rounded, but it was found to be unreliable, and still may break existing programs."

I appreciate that the PEP guidelines are an established thing, and I'm merely a PEP author. On the other hand, my eyes are fresh to this, and there may be ways to refine the guidelines. At the least, I've come upon some contradiction in the guidelines as to whether Rationale is that of the entire PEP or of the Specification.

What I'd like to do from here is keep the current text, but as a "Specification Rationale" subsection within "Specification", so as to make the context clear. I hope it's an acceptable compromise, given that the sanctioned "Rationale" section is optional move the explanatory text to an Explanation subsection of Specification.

The attention from everyone towards making a good document has been impressive and welcome-- even if we have different views on it-- thank you.

Copy link
Contributor Author

Choose a reason for hiding this comment

The reason will be displayed to describe this comment to others. Learn more.

I think I've addressed what Adam raised originally by moving relevant text into Specification.


While f-strings, built-in ``format``, and ``str.format()`` can access the
new option, %-formatting cannot. There is already precedent for not
extending %-formatting with new options, as was the case for the
``,`` option (:pep:`378`).

To date, there doesn't appear to be other widely-used languages or libraries
providing such a formatting option for negative zero. However, the same
``z`` option syntax and semantics has been `proposed for C++ std::format()`_.
While the proposal was withdrawn for C++20, a consensus proposal is promised
for C++23. (For what it's worth, the original `feature request`_ prompting
this PEP was argued without knowledge of the C++ proposal.)

.. _`proposed for C++ std::format()`: http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2020/p1496r2.pdf
.. _`feature request`: https://bugs.python.org/issue45995


Specification
=============

An optional, literal ``z`` is added to the
`Format Specification Mini-Language`_ following ``sign``:

.. code-block:: text

[[fill]align][sign][z][#][0][width][grouping_option][.precision][type]

where ``z`` is allowed for numerical types other than integer. Support for
``z`` is provided by the ``__format__()`` method of each numeric type,
allowing the specifier to be used in f-strings, built-in ``format()``, and
``str.format()``. The %-formatting style will not support the new option.

Synopsis:

.. code-block:: pycon

>>> x = -.00001
>>> f'{x:z.1f}'
'0.0'

>>> x = decimal.Decimal('-.00001')
>>> '{:+z.1f}'.format(x)
'+0.0'

.. _`Format Specification Mini-Language`: https://docs.python.org/3/library/string.html#format-specification-mini-language


Backwards Compatibility
=======================

The new formatting behavior is opt-in, so numerical formatting of existing
programs will not be affected.


Reference Implementation
========================

A reference implementation exists at `pull request #30049`_.

.. _`pull request #30049`: https://github.com/python/cpython/pull/30049


Copyright
=========

This document is placed in the public domain or under the
CC0-1.0-Universal license, whichever is more permissive.



..
Local Variables:
mode: indented-text
indent-tabs-mode: nil
sentence-end-double-space: t
fill-column: 70
coding: utf-8
End: