Independent VB development team?

[WolvenRA]

I'm beginning to wonder if maybe the VB community needs to create an independent VB development team. The team would need to consist of sub teams that work on the various components of the entire development tool chain. If I'm not mistaken, (although I could be), it seems like pretty much the entire tool chain for .Net and .Net Core is supposedly Open Source... but I don't know about the Visual Studio IDE. VS Code is open source but it doesn't contain a number of the components needed to create the entire solution\package.

In any case, why couldn't we make a Fork of the entire development tool chain and control our own destiny? Including incorporating VB into the new .Net Core web development pieces (MVC, Web API, Razor, WebForms, etc.) as well as other portions of .Net Core. In short, Actually Fulfilling the promise Microsoft gave us at the beginning of .Net to keep VB essentially equal to C# through their "Co-Evolution" strategy.

The reason I think we might need to do this is because Microsoft is clearly bailing out of their commitment to VB. While I think this is complete cowardice and blatant treachery on Microsoft's part, we have to face the facts. Just as they shafted the original VB developers, they are now heading down the same path with the VB.Net developers. And just as it cost them thousands of loyal VB developers, I have no doubt it's going to cost them thousands more loyal VB.Net developers. But apparently Microsoft doesn't need the VB.Net developers or the millions of business clients using applications written in VB.Net... (Python anyone?)

I think one of the reasons we don't see as much participation in this Github VBLang community is because most VB.Net developers are business application developers... not system developers. i.e. we don't write Compilers, OS's, Runtimes, Drivers, etc... Consequently most of us (myself included) don't have the background or experience to be able to actively participate in the development of Roslyn, the Framework, the CIL, the Runtime, the VB Compiler etc.. Nor the time. We counted on Microsoft for that. Hard to imagine why we feel stabbed in the back...

Apparently we will have to step up and do it ourselves. While I'm sure I could learn how to help write all these development chain tools, I quite frankly don't have the time or desire. BUT! Since I'm sick and tired of being dependent on an unreliable Microsoft, I would be willing to pay a reasonable annual fee to an INDEPENDENT, DEDICATED, COMPETENT, VB Development team to do it for me.

So, How many others would be willing to support such a team?

Question for Kathleen or one of the other top MS people... How many developers does MS actually have working on the various .Net components specifically for VB?

[WolvenRA]

P.S. I want to make clear that I'm not trying to disrespect, discourage or blame the current Microsoft developers working on VB.Net. I don't think Microsoft's quietly shoving VB.Net to the side is their fault. I'm sure it's a decision being made higher up the corporate ladder.

[paul1956]

My biggest concern was the closing of VB Prototype "Checked expressions"
#41104 by Jared Parsons with the comment. Who is the "We" in the statement below?

We do not accept unexpected language feature pull requests. Please follow the documented policy for adding features to the language.

I don't want to see a fragmented VB language and comments like that and this topic will lead to that.

[WolvenRA]

I don't want to see a fragmented VB language either... But if Microsoft is not going to keep it current with new technologies, then what choice do we have? As I see it, the only other options are to A: learn another language, or B: accept being relegated to merely supporting what will become "legacy" applications. I don't find either of those acceptable when we have a third option... the one I outlined above.

Ideally MS would wake up and realize they can't afford to keep losing developers and all of the businesses those developers provide software for. Unfortunately, big profits cloud their thinking...

[Padanian]

I actually don't mind see VB being fractured to pieces.
It already happened elsewhere in the past: from ashes of a project, new and more fruitful ones blossom.

[RevensofT]

Why not modular model ? when we import (maybe call it plugin) dll, it add new language feature from community.

Plugin Recursion.dll

Function Factorial(Input As Int32) As Int32
      Dim Output = 2
      Recur Until Input < 3
            Output *= Input
            Input -= 1
      End Recur
      Return Output
End Function

Harmony project maybe a good example to do this.
https://github.com/pardeike/Harmony/wiki

[tverweij]

I think one of the reasons we don't see as much participation in this Github VBLang community is because most VB.Net developers are business application developers... not system developers. i.e. we don't write Compilers, OS's, Runtimes, Drivers, etc... Consequently most of us (myself included) don't have the background or experience to be able to actively participate in the development of Roslyn, the Framework, the CIL, the Runtime, the VB Compiler etc.. Nor the time. We counted on Microsoft for that.

I agree 100% - that is why I contacted others that can do it; with already 5 other langugaes with a shared compiler, the only work they have is to add the language syntax and the specific VB things.
Instead of starting blank, my idea was to start with professionals that know what they are doing.
No for free, but at this moment I am paying Microsoft too (and for what?).

[tverweij]

I don't want to see a fragmented VB language

Is there another choice?
No request is accepted, Core does not work proper (yet?), mobile development is impossible, web development has been taken away.
If I look at our PM's twitter, I see C# instead of VB. (look at our previous PM's twitter; it is all about VB as you would expect from our PM).

So my hopes are gone. Microsoft won't help us.

[TeddyAlbina]

I don't want to see a fragmented VB language

Is there another choice?
No request is accepted, Core does not work proper (yet?), mobile development is impossible, web development has been taken away.
If I look at our PM's twitter, I see C# instead of VB. (look at our previous PM's twitter; it is all about VB as you would expect from our PM).

So my hopes are gone. Microsoft won't help us.

No one want to do mobile apps with VB.net

[Padanian]

I do, why not?

[tverweij]

No one want to do mobile apps with VB.net

As I see your profile, you are doing only C#, so it's just YOU don't want to do mobile (or whatever) with VB.

[StefanDirnberger]

We develop mobile apps with VB.Net, too.
But a much better support with Xamarin and VB.Net would be very helpful

[Hamenopi]

My company develops mobile and desktop apps in vb.net

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[AdamSpeight2008]

From my experience the Roslyn developers can be downright hostile, to potential contributors, who have little experience with the codebase. Documentation is lacking, especially "internal" tools, for example the "syntax.xml" and "BoundNodes.xml" has little explanation. Often having to use trial-error to make any changes or progress. The tools that is to build the syntax and bound nodes for the languages, doesn't produces, contextually meaning diagnostic error messages. Instead it produces errors when you compile the resultant outputs.
An historical record of design decision, would help to understand the rationale behind them, at the time.

I have and do, implement prototypes of feature, would use and like. Yet don't yet have the skill or knowledge to convert them into a viable feature, That could be added to a "official" version of the language. Tried to follow their procedure of submit proposals, and it feels like shouting into a dark empty office. The computer power lights are on, but nobodies in. It is not an environment the cultivates the small number of programmers interested in compilers. Encouraging them and helping them to learn. Eventually it becomes "whatever", disinteresting and murders to passion that they had for both languages VB.net and C#.

[WolvenRA]

Isn't it interesting that a number of the more popular "new" languages have a VB style syntax? Specifically, NO CURLY BRACES! Python, Nim, Julia, and others. Isn't it also interesting that Microsoft is spending a LOT of effort to support and promote Python which is very similar to VB.Net, while at the same time trying to sideline VB.Net which is far superior to Python... Why? If they would support and promote VB.Net with .Net Core which will enable VB.net to be used cross platform, I believe VB.Net would become more popular than Python.

[tverweij]

I am afraid they just did the math.
Beginners go to VB - and a lot of people just stayed there because VB could do almost anything.
source: https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/the-net-language-strategy
it states that:

An interesting trend we see in Visual Studio is that VB has twice the share of new developers as it does of all developers. This suggests that VB continues to play a role as a good, approachable entry language for people new to the platform and even to development.

and:

However, outside of VB’s core scenarios many undoubtedly switch to C#

So the less VB can do, the more users will switch to C#.

Tiobe index this month:
VB: 5.8%
C#: 5.9%
Together: 11.7%

This will make C# the third language instead of the fifth.
And the less VB can do, the less they have to support, so they can put the resources on C#.