INIT processing in 5.6.0

[p5pRT]

Migrated from rt.perl.org#2917 (status was 'open')

Searchable as RT2917$

[p5pRT]

From pete.jordan@virginmobile.com

Is this a bug, a bugfix or just a random change in behaviour?

I have a homebrew psh here that reads a .pshrc at startup. This latter
contains a C<use Error> and Error.pm contains an INIT block.

All this is fine with 5.005_03, but I get the following with 5.6.0​:

Too late to run INIT block at
/usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/Horus/Error.pm line 217, <RC> line 30.

The module is loaded in the following context​:

  {
  package PSH;
  no strict;
  use strict 'subs';
  eval $_;
  die "$_​: $@​\n" if $@​;
  }

Comments?

Pete Jordan

[p5pRT]

From @TimToady

Pete Jordan writes​:
: Is this a bug, a bugfix or just a random change in behaviour?
:
: I have a homebrew psh here that reads a .pshrc at startup. This latter
: contains a C<use Error> and Error.pm contains an INIT block.
:
: All this is fine with 5.005_03, but I get the following with 5.6.0​:
:
: Too late to run INIT block at
: /usr/local/lib/perl5/site_perl/Horus/Error.pm line 217, <RC> line 30.
:
: The module is loaded in the following context​:
:
: {
: package PSH;
: no strict;
: use strict 'subs';
: eval $_;
: die "$_​: $@​\n" if $@​;
: }
:
: Comments?

I suspect it's being needlessly restrictive. Seems to me the only
constraint on INIT should be on how *early* it runs, not on how late it
runs. Once the main compilation is deemed to be complete, Perl should
act as if INIT and BEGIN are the same thing. That is, once you're
running the interpreter on the main code (whether or not we used a code
generator back end), a late INIT block should act no different from a
late BEGIN block. Just run it the moment it's parsed. It should even
be theoretically possible to run an INIT block from within an END
block, I imagine.

In short, I think we should ignore the time-travel paradoxes, and try
to do what the user intends when they say INIT, which is to prepare
for something else to happen at runtime. Who cares if it didn't get
into the "official" INIT queue in time? The right thing is to run
the INIT block. Even if it's officially late, it's probably soon
enough to do whatever the writer of the INIT block intended it to do.

However, (thinking down the road a bit here) if at runtime a late CHECK
block is encountered, we should perhaps reset the flag that says
compilation is complete, and assume we're going to checkpoint again and
dump out more precompiled stuff. In that case, we should again
treasure up our INIT blocks for later. In fact, they should probably
be added to the previous list, since the next we restart, we probably
want all the INIT blocks, not just the new ones.

Larry

[p5pRT]

From [Unknown Contact. See original ticket]

Larry Wall <larry@​wall.org> writes​:

I suspect it's being needlessly restrictive. Seems to me the only
constraint on INIT should be on how *early* it runs, not on how late it
runs. Once the main compilation is deemed to be complete, Perl should
act as if INIT and BEGIN are the same thing. That is, once you're
running the interpreter on the main code (whether or not we used a code
generator back end), a late INIT block should act no different from a
late BEGIN block. Just run it the moment it's parsed. It should even
be theoretically possible to run an INIT block from within an END
block, I imagine.

That would be my expectation if I came to this "cold" and seems like
a reasonable way forward.

But just to record historical behaviour prior to 5.6.0's addition
of the warning "late" INIT blocks where silently pushed onto never
to be looked at queue - all the warning does it make that behaviour
user-visible. (Tk has XS side INIT block and has to run same code
in bootstrap too to work round the non-running of INIT in 5.005.)

In short, I think we should ignore the time-travel paradoxes, and try
to do what the user intends when they say INIT, which is to prepare
for something else to happen at runtime. Who cares if it didn't get
into the "official" INIT queue in time? The right thing is to run
the INIT block. Even if it's officially late, it's probably soon
enough to do whatever the writer of the INIT block intended it to do.

There is a small chance that running it will cause problems for
modules which relied on the bug. But I don't think it is a big worry,
the B​::* compiler being in the state it is (and its running of INIT
and CHECK blocks being newish) means that there are probably not many
INIT blocks about - and those of us that have them are relatively
well informed.

However, (thinking down the road a bit here) if at runtime a late CHECK
block is encountered, we should perhaps reset the flag that says
compilation is complete, and assume we're going to checkpoint again and
dump out more precompiled stuff. In that case, we should again
treasure up our INIT blocks for later.

In fact, they should probably
be added to the previous list, since the next we restart, we probably
want all the INIT blocks, not just the new ones.

Larry

[p5pRT]

From [Unknown Contact. See original ticket]

Larry Wall <larry@​wall.org> wrote​:

I suspect it's being needlessly restrictive. Seems to me the only
constraint on INIT should be on how *early* it runs, not on how late it
runs. Once the main compilation is deemed to be complete, Perl should
act as if INIT and BEGIN are the same thing. That is, once you're
running the interpreter on the main code (whether or not we used a code
generator back end), a late INIT block should act no different from a
late BEGIN block. Just run it the moment it's parsed. It should even
be theoretically possible to run an INIT block from within an END
block, I imagine.

This sounds right to me - it seems unreasonable to prevent the loading of
modules at runtime just because they presume to contain INIT blocks...

Pete at home

[p5pRT]

From hv@hugo.hybyte.com

Larry suggested the 'too late for INIT block' bahaviour was needlessly
unhelpful [0]. I notice it hadn't been fixed as of 5.7.0 - has anyone
the intention and/or the knowledge to fix this?

Hugo

[0] http​://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2000-04/msg00081.html

[p5pRT]

From p5p@spam.wizbit.be

On Wed Oct 11 01​:19​:16 2000, hv@​hugo.hybyte.com wrote​:

Larry suggested the 'too late for INIT block' bahaviour was
needlessly
unhelpful [0]. I notice it hadn't been fixed as of 5.7.0 - has anyone
the intention and/or the knowledge to fix this?

Hugo

[0] http​://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2000-
04/msg00081.html

The code in question basically is​:

#!/usr/bin/perl -l

use strict;
use warnings;

print "before init";
eval "INIT { print qq(in init); };";
print "after init";

__END__
before init
Too late to run INIT block at (eval 1) line 1.
after init

Still present in blead (5.11.0).

[p5pRT]

@chorny - Status changed from 'open' to 'stalled'

[p5pRT]

@cpansprout - Status changed from 'stalled' to 'open'

[p5pRT]

From @jkeenan

On Sat Aug 02 02​:30​:47 2008, animator wrote​:

On Wed Oct 11 01​:19​:16 2000, hv@​hugo.hybyte.com wrote​:

Larry suggested the 'too late for INIT block' bahaviour was
needlessly
unhelpful [0]. I notice it hadn't been fixed as of 5.7.0 - has anyone
the intention and/or the knowledge to fix this?

Hugo

[0] http​://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2000-
04/msg00081.html

The code in question basically is​:

#!/usr/bin/perl -l

use strict;
use warnings;

print "before init";
eval "INIT { print qq(in init); };";
print "after init";

__END__
before init
Too late to run INIT block at (eval 1) line 1.
after init

Still present in blead (5.11.0).

And present with 'say' in 5.18.0 as well​:

#####
$ perl -w -E 'say "before init";eval "INIT { say qq(in init); };";say
"after init";'
before init
Too late to run INIT block at (eval 1) line 1.
after init
#####

[khwilliamson]

Still present in 5.35.12