Folder Structure

[XorUnison]

Following the rework of constants.py (and associated files) the question of Folder Structure and dirs has come up.

For now the PR I finished has at least moved images out of the videos folder (because really, why would they be there), but there's some open questions.

There's two questions we have to briefly address.

First, how is the folder structure supposed to look like?
Here's I think the most current suggestion by @eulertour

media
  <module name>
    <scene name>
      svg
      images
      video
        <resolution>p<framerate>

I'm fine with that in principle, but have some reservations. In practical application this could create quite a bit of code overhead if the DIR variables aren't broken down to one. The reason for that is if we go with this folder structure, but also have a separately defined, say for example, VIDEO_DIR, then we need separate code to move stuff around for it to look like this, lest we drop module/scene:

video
  <module name>
    <scene name>
      <resolution>p<framerate>

With respect to that something like this:

media
  svg
  images
    <module name>
      <scene name>
        <resolution>p
  video
    <module name>
      <scene name>
        <resolution>p<framerate>

Is generally a bit more consistent in behavior, whatever the DIR variables, and the code would be simpler too.

And while we could also split images by resolution like that, and I can think of some cases where that would be helpful, do we actually want to? I reckon that with the "save all images" options it definitely would be better, because without being split by resolution that could turn into a real serious mess for a user, but eh. I'm not partial to either.

Second, what are our DIR variables going to be?
Currently we have:

MEDIA_DIR
VIDEO_DIR
TEX_DIR
TEXT_DIR

As @eulertour suggested and I thought of too TEX and TEXT should probably be merged into SVG. Them having to be split would be a real fringe case, and even then the cli output should be enough to do so.
What about the others? Do we remove VIDEO and put it into whatever MEDIA is by default? For that matter do we just remove TEX/TEXT and put that there too, leaving only MEDIA?
Or do we go in the other direction and instead also add IMAGE to place images separately?

My suggestion would be the second folder structure like that, with a resolution folder for images, TEX/TEXT put together and add IMAGE.

Any ideas or opinions?

[PgBiel]

I'm partial to

media
  svg
  images
    <module name>
      <scene name>
        <resolution>p
  video
    <module name>
      <scene name>
        <resolution>p<framerate>

[leotrs]

I don't have a strong opinion about the full folder structure when it's needed.

But can we also provide an option for manim to just output the one file? I think specially for beginners, getting a whole folder structure as output is unnecessary and even confusing. Sometimes I'm just trying out something new and I need a 3s mp4, not a host of files and folders.

[kilacoda-old]

I have a suggestion. Can we output the videos and other outputs to the media folder in the source file's current location?Like:

<source_file>.py
media
    <source_file>
        <1440p>
            <...files...>

We could add a --use-global-media-dir option to use the media folder as earlier.

[PgBiel]

imo global media dir should be the default and you should opt-in to a media file in the cd
edit: see below

[eulertour]

@PgBiel That could make it tricky to view a video you rendered previously, at least without rendering it again.

[PgBiel]

how so?

[PgBiel]

update: thinking better about this, if manim is installed as a pip package then it makes more sense for the default to be curr dir yea

[eulertour]

I'm not sure if you still have the question or not, but if you run manim from a far off directory, we write the video to a fixed location, and you later want to access the video you made, you'll have to reference the fixed location with a long path.

[PgBiel]

gotcha

[XorUnison]

curr dir is also currently default, which can be overwritten via dirs.py (or some future config thingy) or cli commands, with ascending priority.

We probably could add a command for singular file dumping, but is it worth the hassle? Ultimately beginners will have to look up and understand that command too, which strikes as not really much better than a folder structure. I think the assumption has to be that people do more with manim than render a single 3s video once in their lifetime if they already bother with it, so this cloaked short-term convenience could even lead to long term messy practices and anti-convenience.

I have a suggestion. Can we output the videos and other outputs to the media folder in the source file's current location?Like:

If we add any command in that direction like this, then a command to do this strikes me as much better. I could see how someone who usually outputs at curr dir or a fixed location might occasionally want something dumped at project location.

[leotrs]

I think the assumption has to be that people do more with manim than render a single 3s video once in their lifetime if they already bother with it, so this cloaked short-term convenience could even lead to long term messy practices and anti-convenience.

I agree we have to provide powerful tools that would cover all cases, not just the hypothetical quick-n-dirty case. However, I think that providing a powerful to beginners is usually confusing. You don't teach someone python by showing them the ins and outs of stdlib. You show them "hello world".

So I don't think that manim's "hello world" should involve an entire directory structure that is three-levels deep. I think manim's "hello world" should output a single file, and place it on the current directory. Once a user requires more than that (and they will), we can change to the full-directory output by changing a single line in the (soon-to-be-real) .cfg file.

What do you think?

[XorUnison]

I agree we have to provide powerful tools that would cover all cases, not just the hypothetical quick-n-dirty case. However, I think that providing a powerful to beginners is usually confusing. You don't teach someone python by showing them the ins and outs of stdlib. You show them "hello world".

Maybe. Then again I'm more the type that starts by doing the former and completely forgoing the latter. Not that we should aim for that type though. I also wouldn't compare a well defined folder structure to the ins and outs of a library. A folder structure takes me like 30s to look through. A library... not so much. Or rather much more, you know what I mean.

So I don't think that manim's "hello world" should involve an entire directory structure that is three-levels deep. I think manim's "hello world" should output a single file, and place it on the current directory. Once a user requires more than that (and they will), we can change to the full-directory output by changing a single line in the (soon-to-be-real) .cfg file.

What do you think?

We... could? The thing is, the amounts of complaints and questions I've heard about the directory structure so far is precisely 0, and I've heard a lot of complaints and questions.
I've sifted through the Discord, searching for "folder" and really, not one complaint of this kind, and I mean, once manim successfully renders something it explicitly tells you where the results are, so it's not like anyone ever had to search.
On the flip side there were complaints about folder structure not working properly.
It's mostly cairo, on spot two a little more cairo again, and then people are usually starting to instantly switch over to "how do I animate this thing?" kind of discourse.

So it sounds like we'd appease an unspoken minority with something kind of trivial, while annoying all the more proficient users who are taking a folder structure for granted. I know I take such a structure for granted with a program like this and just want to get accustomed to it asap.