[BUG] Perpetuum Mobile in power generation

[penguineer]

Describe the bug

It is possible to build a perpetuum mobile with AB:
The setup Offshore pump + Electric boiler 1 + 2x Steam Engine 2 keeps running once it has been started.

The Steam Engines with that boiler are able to produce 1.8MB (900kW each) in that setup, the Electric boiler only takes 1.2MW.

To Reproduce
Information to reproduce the behavior:

1. Game Version: 1.0.0 (Build 54889, linux64, steam)
2. Modlist

• AAI Industry
• Angel's and Bob's mods
• some quality-of-life mods, but nothing game-changing

Possible solution

Changing the recipe for steam generation might be problematic, as existing builds are fine-tuned to that.
Increase the power consumption of Electric boilers to more than 1.8MW, so that this setup takes more energy than it produces.

[LovelySanta]

Last we checked it was a break even for mk 1 and mk3, and and a 40 kW gain on mk2 boiler in combination with steam engine 1.
However that would be very space inefficient and not accounting for efficiency modules. Maybe this changes with bobs steam engines.

We might revisit this when playing with bobs mods? Maybe a simple temperature tweak might be good enough.

[penguineer]

I wasn't sure if steam at this specific temperature was actually needed in the intended use-cases for Electric Boilers. I will keep an eye on this.

[adoa]

The temperature of the steam is very important: double temperature, double the energy. If you don't provide the maximum temperature to the steam engine 2 (316°C), you will get less than their nominal maximum power of 1.8MW.

One electric boiler produces 40 steam/second at 165 °C. If you put this into two of Bob's steam engines 2, you should get 1.257 MW. One boiler consumes 1.2 MW. The energy surplus is 57 kW. This is really not worth exploiting.

I tried to implement this setup. However, I don't even get a stable 5kW of surplus to power a single lamp.

So far I don't think this is worth changing.

[penguineer]

The temperature of the steam is very important: double temperature, double the energy. If you don't provide the maximum temperature to the steam engine 2 (316°C), you will get less than their nominal maximum power of 1.8MW.

I'm aware of that. :)

One electric boiler produces 40 steam/second at 165 °C. If you put this into two of Bob's steam engines 2, you should get 1.257 MW. One boiler consumes 1.2 MW. The energy surplus is 57 kW. This is really not worth exploiting.

I tried to implement this setup. However, I don't even get a stable 5kW of surplus to power a single lamp.

It can support itself plus a pump, but not much more, true that.

So far I don't think this is worth changing.

I found it odd do be able to build that in the first place and I remember that positive loops have been removed on other occasions. I guess since there are Productivity Modules, they cannot be avoided completely, but reducing steam temperature to 150°C (which I remember from cooling towers) might work as well?

I understand the Electric Boiler for recipes that need steam and they don't need a specific temperature.

[LovelySanta]

the temperature does matter in some cases in angels.

[penguineer]

My question is: Are there use-cases of the Electric Boiler where a temperature of 165°C (instead of 150°C) is needed?

I'll check that on my current play-through.
It's also not a super-huge deal, just looks a bit odd that there is a positive energy cycle in a mod that want's to bring more realism. :)

[LovelySanta]

My question is: Are there use-cases of the Electric Boiler where a temperature of 165°C (instead of 150°C) is needed?

No, 150° would work just fine, however, the regular boiler creates it at 165°, hence why I wanted to keep that same temperature... the energy is calculated such that on a mk1 boiler with mk1 steam engine of base game, it has a net gain of 0.

You can always make it positive by adding efficiency module to it, so yes it's marginal positive, not worth for sustaining a reasonable base of comparable size as the footprint of the energy production.

I'll check that on my current play-through.
It's also not a super-huge deal, just looks a bit odd that there is a positive energy cycle in a mod that want's to bring more realism. :)

Full realism is not the goal here, or angels would be too complicated, realism is not the goal here, reasonable realistic, yes

[adoa]

I agree with Santa that this is not worth exploiting.

However, a simple alternative would be to make the electric boiler just a tiny bit more power hungry, e.g. 1.25MW.
Thus we could account for both more realism (dissipation is a thing!) and make sure nothing too weird is breaking by keeping the temperature at 165 °C.

[penguineer]

However, a simple alternative would be to make the electric boiler just a tiny bit more power hungry, e.g. 1.25MW.

Sounds good, thanks for taking care of this issue and keep up the good work! :D