Tab Folders: About Tabs and Bookmarks

[bdbch]

Hey! This discussion is based off of this comment I made on the current tab folder PR:

#9355 (comment)

In general I think bookmarks are a way better representation of how pinned tabs should or could work. They already bring native folder support, can be synced via Firefox Sync without any issues, can be renamed and even described and the only big "problem" would be to represent them as tabs.

Imo:

• Pinned Tabs should become Bookmarks (we can still call them Pinned Tabs in the Browser as they're represented as tabs)
• Essential Tabs should become Pinned Tabs (can still be called Essential Tabs)
• When a Bookmark is closed, it should use the bookmarks data and be a stateless representation of the bookmark
• When a Bookmark is clicked / opened, it should keep the representation but hook it up to the tabs state in the background so the bookmark now represents the open tab. The bookmark is not deleted or modified in anyway (except the user tells the tab to "replace the current pinned URL")
• The Bookmark UI will then "mask" the tabs associated with them so you can still move the tab/bookmark around in the sidebar, put it in folders, etc. etc. while having a tab open

What are your thoughts? Since right now bookmarks are kinda useless in Zen this would be the perfect use case and would also help users who want to migrate back to Firefox to keep their bookmarks from Zen.

[bpavuk]

we don't need to rename everything to make use of bookmarks as a mechanism that underpins Essentials and Pinned Tabs

[MrModest]

Your suggestion seems to ignore the workspace scope, so I want to add on to this.

If going with the bookmark approach, then each workspace should have its own dedicated folder so its pinned tab can be living there. Otherwise, how Zen would know which workspace the just synced pinned tab belongs to.

Essential Tabs should become Pinned Tabs

I have nothing against this as well, but another note on the workspace:
Essential Tabs shouldn't belong to any workspace since they should be available across all workspaces.
As it works now in the Arc. The only nuance is, if you want a different set of essential tabs, you just set a different container for your workspace. (Arc uses different profiles for this, but in the Firefox world we have a Multi-Container approach).

I can see the bookmarks structure like this:

.
├── Zen/
│   ├── Essential Tabs/
│   │   ├── Tab1
│   │   └── Tab2
│   ├── Workspace1/
│   │   ├── Folder1
│   │   └── PinnedTab2
│   └── Workspace1/
│       ├── Folder1
│       └── PinnedTab2
└── Another Firefox root bookmark

[eXaminator]

I just want to add, that this approach ignores things like additional settings for workspaces / folders / tabs (like custom icons or colors etc.), doesn't it? So at the very least for workspaces you'll still need additional data structures (that are also part of the sync), and the same can probably be said for folders and tabs, at the very least down the line as more feature requests come in to make it more and more like Arc (or even just to because they're good ideas).

Or could bookmarks already handle all that anyways?

[bdbch]

I mean they could go a hacky route and store workspace information in the bookmarks as a bookmark itself? I think bookmark values don't need to be links/urls so you could theoretically store JSON in there.

Icons and colors are not really part of the tabs I think? except you're talking about tab groups?

[eXaminator]

1. Adding fake bookmarks would reduce the advantage that this could easily be used with non-zen firefox browsers (like mobile). One of the biggest advantages of the bookmark route for me would be that I could easily access my pinned tabs and workspaces on my phone.
2. If we compare it to arc (as may do for obvious reasons), there it's at the very least possible to change the icon, which is great especially for essential tabs. If I have 2 or 3 different pages in Jira up there that I use all the time but all of them use the same icon - that's not ideal. So that's a feature request that I'm sure will come up (at the very least by me 😁) if it's not already out there. So it makes sense to have some idea of the limits of this approach, in addition to the advantages.

[bdbch]

Adding customization per tab would probably need a custom solution. I don’t think there’s a clean or native way to do this without running into weird hacks—like storing extra data inside bookmarks, which could lead to messy titles or unusable bookmark lists.

I’m mainly thinking about this from a usability and portability angle. Since Zen doesn’t have a mobile app right now, it would be nice if customizations worked on mobile too, or could at least carry over to a Chromium-based browser if someone switches. I just prefer setups that stay flexible and don’t lock me into one specific tool or platform.

I’m not sure how bookmarks are handled internally—like whether they keep a consistent ID across sessions—but if Zen were to go with a bookmark-based approach, maybe it could store the customization data locally or sync it through its own service. Most browsers don’t support extra metadata on bookmarks anyway, so relying on that probably wouldn’t work across the board.

[eXaminator]

But that's exactly what I'm saying, you're viewing this from one specific angle, I'm trying to bring in another perspective.

I understand your view and I generally have the same view, but it's also problematic to just go with a solution without taking future developments and possibilities into consideration. I think if Zen had its own sync service a lot of this wouldn't even be an issue, besides exporting for another browser which could just be some kind of export button instead of the whole core of the workspace / pinned tab system.

So, while I think this approach would probably bring a few functions out of the box that imho are sorely missing right now (especially sync!), it might lack other features or the option to properly extend it in the future (again, I have no knowledge of this, it's just something to keep in mind). I know the dev has already made up their mind, and they might have good reasons for this. At the same time I hope they see the features that are missing (and as far as I can tell, at least sync as come up a few times) and make decisions that will lead to the implementation of these missing features sooner than later, but I also hope they take a broader perspective on this. I'm sure there will be other ways to enable sync and browser import/export. Maybe adding pinned tabs and folders (and workspaces) to bookmarks in addition to however all that is actually implemented. But that could be a separate feature and doesn't mean the whole pinned tabs feature needs to be based on bookmarks if it doesn't make sense for extensibility.

[bdbch]

Jumping in here to share some thoughts following the conversation over at this PR about the relationship between tabs and bookmarks—especially in the context of browsers like Zen and Arc.

I know there are strong opinions on both sides, and I completely understand the argument for keeping tabs and bookmarks as distinct concepts, which has been the standard in most browsers. However, I think it’s worth highlighting that browsers like Arc (and now Zen) are intentionally shifting away from the traditional model. In Arc, tabs are persistent by design—they stick around across sessions, can be organized into folders, and act almost like “pinned applications.” This persistence and organization make tabs feel less like temporary session items and more like a workspace you return to, which is why the boundary between tabs and bookmarks gets blurry for me.

Personally, I still prefer the idea of bookmarks behaving like tabs—especially when it comes to features like folders, nesting, and portability across devices and browsers. For my workflow, this approach feels more flexible and future-proof, particularly for syncing and migration scenarios.

Of course, I totally recognize that the final decision is up to the project maintainers and the overall vision for Zen. I just wanted to add my perspective for anyone else following this discussion or weighing in on the direction.

[swebber-upngo]

I whole heartedly agree with this analysis.

Anything I can do to get Zen to act like Arc will make me happy, but blurring the lines between tabs and bookmarks is a modern design idea that makes the web just feel better. Once you can organize and open and close tabs without them disappearing completely, they effectively replace any use for the traditional style of bookmarks.

There are pros and cons, but I feel the pros dramatically out-weigh the cons, and I look forward to switching from Arc to a maintained Zen browser as soon as the tab folders make this feasible.