Merge pull request #156 from manikanta-hitunik-com/patch-156

Update 472-state-of-flask-and-pallets-in-2024.txt

Author: mikeckennedy

transcripts/472-state-of-flask-and-pallets-in-2024.txt

@@ -52,7 +52,7 @@
 
 00:02:19 projects around Flask and tools and variations like Court and so on. You give a really nice talk
 
-00:02:26 at Embedded FlaskCon, talk a bit about that in a second, about the state of Palettes. I thought,
+00:02:26 at Embedded Flask Con, talk a bit about that in a second, about the state of Palettes. I thought,
 
 00:02:32 "You know what? Let's just take that idea and share it with everyone." Looking forward to
 
@@ -104,9 +104,9 @@
 
 00:04:28 issue tracker saying, "Oh, you broke something." And ultimately, I had to tell them, "You need to
 
-00:04:34 be using a tool. There's quite a few tools out now, although we don't have a lockfile standard
+00:04:34 be using a tool. There's quite a few tools out now, although we don't have a lock file standard
 
-00:04:38 yet, but there's pip compile, there's PDM, there's Rai. You need to use a tool and pin your
+00:04:38 yet, but there's pip compile, there's PDM, there's Rye. You need to use a tool and pin your
 
 00:04:44 dependency tree, because then you can see when there's updates, and you can update them deliberately
 
@@ -122,15 +122,15 @@
 
 00:05:21 only addressed the primary dependencies, not the transitive dependency. They might pin Flask,
 
-00:05:27 but did they pin Vexoid? I don't know. They may have, probably they didn't, unless they use pip
+00:05:27 but did they pin Werkzeug? I don't know. They may have, probably they didn't, unless they use pip
 
 00:05:32 freeze, but then you gather a bunch of garbage that isn't actually about your project that got
 
 00:05:37 sucked in from some other thing. It was really sort of funky before. I don't know, you mentioned
 
 00:05:44 pip tools and pip compile. I am loving that workflow these days.
 
-00:05:48 Yeah, that's what I've switched all the projects themselves to. If you go look at Flask or Vexoid
+00:05:48 Yeah, that's what I've switched all the projects themselves to. If you go look at Flask or Werkzeug
 
 00:05:53 or any of those, we have a requirements folder with different environment files that say, "Here
 
@@ -158,9 +158,9 @@
 
 00:06:56 to a pin dependencies, and I just do the upgrade when I feel like, "Oh, let's go get some new
 
-00:07:02 dependencies and see how that goes." Yeah, yeah, very nice. Okay, well, let's start with Flaskon.
+00:07:02 dependencies and see how that goes." Yeah, yeah, very nice. Okay, well, let's start with Flask Con.
 
-00:07:06 I called it an embedded conference, and this is different than it has been before. I think Flaskon
+00:07:06 I called it an embedded conference, and this is different than it has been before. I think Flask Con
 
 00:07:12 at one point was a purely online one, or maybe that was just COVID, and we just didn't have
 
@@ -260,7 +260,7 @@
 
 00:11:28 Nick Kentar at North Bay Python a few times now, and I've told him, "We should try to bring that
 
-00:11:33 back." I think there's a few other people who are interested as well. It doesn't have to be Flaskon
+00:11:33 back." I think there's a few other people who are interested as well. It doesn't have to be Flask Con
 
 00:11:38 specifically, but if I could run some sort of local conference and I could do some Flask stuff
 
@@ -274,11 +274,11 @@
 
 00:12:02 and get notified about whatever this other thing is. Because it'll be in the same basic neighborhood.
 
-00:12:06 Yeah. So Jazzy out in the audience asked, "Can we attend Flaskon online?"
+00:12:06 Yeah. So Jazzy out in the audience asked, "Can we attend Flask Con online?"
 
 00:12:13 This year, or this in-person one in 2024, we weren't able to do that. But all the talks are
 
-00:12:20 available now on our YouTube channel. If you just search Flaskon 2024, you'll find it. Or
+00:12:20 available now on our YouTube channel. If you just search Flask Con 2024, you'll find it. Or
 
 00:12:27 pyvideo.org has all of them listed. The first three we ran were purely online. So you could
 
@@ -302,7 +302,7 @@
 
 00:13:10 Yeah.
 
-00:13:10 Yeah. That's really cool. So yeah, I'll link to the playlist of Flaskon 2024 for folks in the
+00:13:10 Yeah. That's really cool. So yeah, I'll link to the playlist of Flask Con 2024 for folks in the
 
 00:13:16 show notes. They can check that out. Awesome. Well, we'll see what 2025 brings. Hopefully,
 
@@ -384,7 +384,7 @@
 
 00:16:39 and that sort of thing. So Flask is like the most popular library that everybody heard of,
 
-00:16:45 followed by Jinja and Click. But then we also have VericSoig, which is the lower level stuff
+00:16:45 followed by Jinja and Click. But then we also have WerkZeug, which is the lower level stuff
 
 00:16:50 below Flask, and then MarkupSafe and It's Dangerous are two little helper libraries
 
@@ -396,13 +396,13 @@
 
 00:17:14 Yeah. And like we're doing a lot of work on that to kind of try to unify Flask and Quart as much
 
-00:17:22 as possible. So behind the scenes, they're sharing a lot more code now. Quart, like VericSoig,
+00:17:22 as possible. So behind the scenes, they're sharing a lot more code now. Quart, like Werkzeug,
 
 00:17:28 is all like the low level request response handling for the Flask users. And Quart wasn't
 
 00:17:33 using that at first because it needed like much more async things. But we've managed to
 
-00:17:38 develop a lot more things called, the term is called SansIO, like without input/output,
+00:17:38 develop a lot more things called, the term is called SyncIO, like without input/output,
 
 00:17:44 where we have all like the behavior that's common to both. It doesn't require asyncIO versus
 
@@ -626,7 +626,7 @@
 
 00:26:19 been but a couple of months. It's around 75 million downloads a month. That's a hefty chunk of user
 
-00:26:25 base there. Yeah. I occasionally look at pypistats.org or pepi.tech are the two websites that
+00:26:25 base there. Yeah. I occasionally look at pypistats.org or pypi.tech are the two websites that
 
 00:26:33 track these numbers. So I can look at the current one. Flask is downloads in the last day, 3.15
 
@@ -680,13 +680,13 @@
 
 00:28:55 Oh, man, that's rough. Are you getting some support from the other people at the org and
 
-00:28:59 potentially from the outside? Yeah, I I there is there are other people on the team. So it's not
+00:28:59 potentially from the outside? Yeah, I there is there are other people on the team. So it's not
 
 00:29:04 like we're a bus factor of one in the sense of like if I was not here for some reason,
 
 00:29:09 other people would have access to these things and could keep them going. But the reality is
 
-00:29:15 not to downplay all the work that they do in the community and when they they are working on code.
+00:29:15 not to downplay all the work that they do in the community and when they are working on code.
 
 00:29:21 But like I do probably 90 percent of the code and like the decision making and all that sort of
 
@@ -744,7 +744,7 @@
 
 00:31:56 yeah. I can't find it. Yeah. We don't know. It is open source. Oh, here we go. Here we go.
 
-00:32:02 Have we got a requirement? We've got a project dot Tomo. Oh yeah. It's Flask.
+00:32:02 Have we got a requirement? We've got a project.toml. Oh yeah. It's Flask.
 
 00:32:08 There you have it. I love that. There we go. Beautiful. It's very rewarding every time I find
 
@@ -768,13 +768,13 @@
 
 00:33:08 we can go wherever you want. So maybe that a good foundation? Yeah, we did like Flask and
 
-00:33:12 Vericsoig are pretty tied because most of the stuff that people report to Flask is actually
+00:33:12 Werkzeug are pretty tied because most of the stuff that people report to Flask is actually
 
-00:33:18 an issue with one of the other libraries that Flask is using. And most often that's with Vericsoig.
+00:33:18 an issue with one of the other libraries that Flask is using. And most often that's with Werkzeug.
 
 00:33:24 So you can see we're not at inbox zero, we're at inbox nine right now. That's incredible. You know,
 
-00:33:28 maybe like I asked you to explain palettes like Vericsoig, you know, that's probably not how
+00:33:28 maybe like I asked you to explain palettes like Werkzeug, you know, that's probably not how
 
 00:33:33 English speaking folks would say that. Werkzeug or Werkzug or something. Right. But Armen,
 
@@ -872,7 +872,7 @@
 
 00:37:28 for like my string or bytes. Even if most of the time, especially nowadays, people aren't
 
-00:37:33 using Verixoic directly and all these tools. They're using Flask, which just does the right
+00:37:33 using Werkzeug directly and all these tools. They're using Flask, which just does the right
 
 00:37:37 thing from the get-go, which means all those intermediate checks on the way are totally
 
@@ -884,7 +884,7 @@
 
 00:37:45 Testing 10 times for the same thing down the process.
 
-00:37:48 Right. And this was just pervasive throughout. Verixoic was just everywhere with all these
+00:37:48 Right. And this was just pervasive throughout. Werkzeug was just everywhere with all these
 
 00:37:53 unnecessary checks. And it made the code more complex to maintain, reason about,
 
@@ -902,15 +902,15 @@
 
 00:38:32 Yeah.
 
-00:38:33 And so like Verixoic was doing all these things about letting you pass encodings all over the
+00:38:33 And so like Werkzeug was doing all these things about letting you pass encodings all over the
 
 00:38:38 place and switch between things. And that was also complexity. So I finally decided, okay,
 
 00:38:45 I had heard some anecdotes as well from people who had switched from using Python 2 to Python 3,
 
-00:38:50 or had stuck with Python 2 and old versions of Verixoic because they had noticed a significant
+00:38:50 or had stuck with Python 2 and old versions of Werkzeug because they had noticed a significant
 
-00:38:56 performance difference in the first versions of Verixoic that added that 2 and 3 compatibility.
+00:38:56 performance difference in the first versions of Werkzeug that added that 2 and 3 compatibility.
 
 00:39:00 And so I figured, okay, I'm going to get a similar speed up if I remove that now,
 
@@ -920,7 +920,7 @@
 
 00:39:16 pick another function to keep working on and just slowly, slowly pull it all apart.
 
-00:39:20 But I did end up with, so now Verixoic just supports strings everywhere, except in the
+00:39:20 But I did end up with, so now Werkzeug just supports strings everywhere, except in the
 
 00:39:27 very few places where it works directly with the request and response data where it handles bytes.
 
@@ -984,13 +984,13 @@
 
 00:42:17 And so I've been doing work on like a meta level. So every project now, if you go look at Flask
 
-00:42:23 and Ferg, so again, Jinja and you clone all the repos, all the repos look exactly the same. They
+00:42:23 and Quart, so again, Jinja and you clone all the repos, all the repos look exactly the same. They
 
 00:42:28 all have the same files, the same directory layout, same tool configurations, et cetera.
 
 00:42:33 Because just like it should be easy for every contributor to get the same environment,
 
-00:42:38 it should be easy for anybody who's used to contributing to Flask to go over to VeriXoic
+00:42:38 it should be easy for anybody who's used to contributing to Flask to go over to Werkzeug
 
 00:42:41 and be just as comfortable in that project. It's the Flask way and it all goes the same, right?
 
@@ -1000,7 +1000,7 @@
 
 00:43:00 and it's evolved over the years too, because we were on Travis before and then we needed to make
 
-00:43:06 like Windows builds for Markup Safe, which has wheels. So we were on AppVeyor also.
+00:43:06 like Windows builds for Markup Safe, which has wheels. So we were on AppViewer also.
 
 00:43:12 Then Travis went away and stuff and GitHub Actions became more. But that was all for tests.
 
@@ -1064,7 +1064,7 @@
 
 00:45:58 GitHub actions, right? Yeah. And GitHub added their own. So the SLSA out of station that
 
-00:46:04 I was talking about, if you scroll down on this screen, you can see that multiple.intodo.jsonl.
+00:46:04 I was talking about, if you scroll down on this screen, you can see that multiple.intodo.json.
 
 00:46:11 If you click on it, it's just a big blob of text, but that's basically describing here are these
 
@@ -1102,13 +1102,13 @@
 
 00:47:36 is done for them. Yeah. Yeah. That's awesome. All right. So the two takeaways that I got from
 
-00:47:41 Veric'soic's update was this dropping of the two to three juggling made it 50% faster for request
+00:47:41 Werkzeug update was this dropping of the two to three juggling made it 50% faster for request
 
 00:47:48 response and URL lib is no longer URL lib-ish. Yeah. Yeah. So that was the other part of it.
 
-00:47:55 If we're going back to Vericoic, so we removed the string bytes, testing all over the place.
+00:47:55 If we're going back to Werkzeug, so we removed the string bytes, testing all over the place.
 
-00:48:02 And Vericoic, this was again, historically because of like Python two versus Python three
+00:48:02 And Werkzeug, this was again, historically because of like Python two versus Python three
 
 00:48:08 differences and then compatibility and stuff. But another of the changes in Python three was
 
@@ -1118,7 +1118,7 @@
 
 00:48:25 packages instead. So it kind of changed the interfaces and where everything was. So at the
 
-00:48:31 time it made sense for Vericoic to just copy that code into our own code base and then make
+00:48:31 time it made sense for Werkzeug to just copy that code into our own code base and then make
 
 00:48:37 our own tweaks to it to be compatible with everything. But what that ended up meaning
 
@@ -1130,17 +1130,17 @@
 
 00:49:02 performance improvements and that sort of stuff. And we're not getting any of those benefits
 
-00:49:05 because we now have like this vendored copy that we've changed ourselves. We couldn't even bring
+00:49:05 because we now have like this vendor copy that we've changed ourselves. We couldn't even bring
 
 00:49:08 in the changes. And just like the string bytes everywhere, having that our own copy of that
 
 00:49:14 really complex low level code made it harder to reason about the code and maintain it. And all
 
-00:49:20 this stuff is kind of like, it's not the essential parts of Vericoic. Vericoic is like trying to be
+00:49:20 this stuff is kind of like, it's not the essential parts of Werkzeug. Werkzeug is like trying to be
 
 00:49:25 the WSGI utilities and stuff. It's not trying to be like every single possible, like it's not
 
-00:49:29 trying to, we don't need to make our own URL lib utility and everything to be Vericoic. So that
+00:49:29 trying to, we don't need to make our own URL lib utility and everything to be Werkzeug. So that
 
 00:49:34 was another big one where I identified like, okay, this is just a lot of complexity. I didn't
 
@@ -1212,7 +1212,7 @@
 
 00:52:50 like is an expert in typing and like type annotations and static type tools, all the
 
-00:52:56 libraries do pass mypy strict tests and export. Like we do do some testing against pywrite to
+00:52:56 libraries do pass mypy strict tests and export. Like we do some testing against pyright to
 
 00:53:05 some degree, but I'm just typing just, it's very hard for me to understand. Like it's a very
 
@@ -1403,4 +1403,3 @@
 01:01:02 at talkpython.fm/youtube. This is your host, Michael Kennedy. Thanks so much for listening.
 
 01:01:08 I really appreciate it. Now get out there and write some Python code.
-