meta: edit collaborator nomination process #57483
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Please don't merge before resolving the question I asked. I think this creates more frustration for cases where private nomination passes but people raises concerns on public nomination. In that scenario, the purpose of private nomination is extremely vague and becomes an unnecessary step. |
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This mentions "explicit objections" without definition. This is far too ambiguous. In the recent conversation it seems some folks took asking a clarifying question as a block that needed to be overcome while others viewed it as just a question. I think if we're going to make the private conversation mandatory we need to be more explicit and unambiguous about the exit criteria.
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@jasnell do you really think the status quo is better than this PR? "explicit objections" wasn't defined before, it's still not defined, IMO it's not a valid reason to block. Anyway, I'm happy to implement suggestions if you have any. |
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I think if we're adding more mandatory process we need to make sure it is actually enough of an improvement to avoid the issues it is meant to address and I don't see these proposed changes as doing so. Another deficiency I see here is that it does not account for self nominations. That is, our process explicitly allows anyone to nominate themselves, in which case there cannot be a mandatory private conversation first. This proposed mandatory process here can be easily sidestepped easily by asking the nominee to just open the nomination issue themselves as a public issue I'm also not at all convinced yet that changes to the mandatory process are required at all and I'm hesitant to make knee jerk reactionary small changes that seek to "solve" problems it's not clear we have agreement even exist. I'd prefer us to try improvements by convention and education rather than new normative requirement. So yes, I'd rather maintain the status quo until we have more of a clear consensus on the problems that are trying to be solved. |
That feels a bit dismissive of my work, I've carefully worded this PR to try to improve the process, and I'm not pretending it's solving anything. And you're not being hesitant, you're blocking.
That seems like an arbitrary restriction that we have no reason to follow – on the contrary, a change that's too big would probably be requested to be split into several PRs.
IMO a change can be an improvement even if it doesn't solve a problem (or solves something not everyone thinks as a problem), and we should not wait to have problems to make changes, that seems like a unhealthy way of doing things.
That would be a valid reason to block, I agree, but I don't think it's true, we still have a paragraph for self-nomination: Lines 181 to 183 in aa7a4de |
Yes, I used the red X because I see things in this PR that I think need further work that I'd like to see addressed before it proceeds, which is an appropriate use of the red X. Otherwise the PR would have landed without addressing those concerns. In any case, I've provided concrete actionable feedback as to what changes I'd like to see. For the self nomination loophole I think we just need additional clarification about what that process is. For instance, rather than it being a self-nomination, let's clarify that it's a request to be nominated, in which case an existing collaborator would still be expected to go through the private discussion process. |
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Another question that we should ask ourselves is:
This mandatory step reduces the information available to the public, and hence be understood as gate-keeping.
Let's assume that I'm an outsider who wants to join the Nodejs organization. I don't know:
- Nomination to acceptance ratio of the nominees.
- Any public information about the nominees that makes Node.js accountable for discrimination against certain criterias outlined in CoC.
- Don't know why a nomination passes or gets rejected.
We might be ok with some, or all. We just need to acknowledge that if we unintentionally/unknowingly discriminate against certain criteria, there is no-one other than Node.js members that can regulate such decisions because we don't make these information public.
I'm not blocking with this comment. I'm just trying to raise awareness.
https://github.com/nodejs/node/blob/main/GOVERNANCE.md documents that:
I think what we need to change here is probably simply remove:
and only leave the way to be
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@joyeecheung that works, but I would also just add that the request to nominate would be expected to follow the regular mandatory process so that it's clear and unambiguous |
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About the question of "explicitly opposition": can we just use the Github poll feature? https://github.blog/changelog/2022-04-12-discussions-polls/ We can set the following options:
If anyone is choosing It's just a thought, and I don't think that has to be spelled out specifically in this PR, at least making the private nomination mandatory part - I think that's what we have been doing for the past many years and TBH I can't even remember when was the last time anyone did a nomination without private discussions first. Would people having concerns about codifying this practice even do a public nomination without private discussions today? If not, what's the point of keeping it optional on paper? |
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I think the upside of keeping it optional on paper is that if someone forgets about it and goes straight to opening the issue, the nomination is not invalidated – and that’s probably a good thing, mistakes happen, and it would be bad to put the nominee in an inconfortable position because the nominator forgot about that step – I’ll make another pass to the text to make the private discussion optional but strongly recommended |
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It seems we are trying to avoid two things:
I wonder if we can have a balance by at least letting the nominee have a say in this - if they are okay with the risk that can come with public scrutiny, then it's fine doing so; otherwise, the nominator can go with the private route and seek feedback in private first. |
Can you give a sentence or two (or however much text you need) explaining why you prefer James's changes? (I don't have an opinion one way or the other. But I'm sure Antoine would want to know what he could change that would make you comfortable removing your block.) James's proposal uses some text that I wrote, which is totally fine, but it's his proposed changes, not mine. I don't mind credit, so thanks for that! But I'm mentioning it because I don't have an opinion as to which set of changes I prefer. |
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@anonrig that seems like a false dichotomy, AFAICT both PRs can land. Why not both? |
| 1. **Optional but strongly recommended**: open a | ||
| [discussion in the nodejs/collaborators][] repository. Provide a summary of | ||
| the nominee's contributions (see below for an example). | ||
| 2. **Optional but strongly recommended**: After sufficient wait time (e.g. 72 |
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So previously we were waiting 7 days for private nomination and now we are changing it to 72 hours? Why this change?
| block, add a comment in the private discussion stating you're planning on | ||
| opening a public issue, e.g. "I see a number of approvals and no block, I'll | ||
| be opening a public nomination issue if I don't hear any objections in the | ||
| next 72 hours". |
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I agree with @RafaelGSS. This is kind of confusing to me.
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| The _Optional but strongly recommended_ steps are optional in the sense that | ||
| skipping them would not invalidate the nomination, but it could put the nominee | ||
| in a very awkward situation if a nomination they didn't ask for pops out of |
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Previous comment was mentioning "landing this nomination frictionless as possible" and right now, we're rewording it with "awkward" which is not the ideal way of describing this awkward situation.
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- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: nodejs#57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
- recommend more strongly a private discussion prior to a public one. - add requirement for the nominee to publicly accept the nomination. - move recommendation for heads up comment from "How to review nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section. PR-URL: #57483 Reviewed-By: Joyee Cheung <joyeec9h3@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jake Yuesong Li <jake.yuesong@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Jordan Harband <ljharb@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ulises Gascón <ulisesgascongonzalez@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Robert Nagy <ronagy@icloud.com> Reviewed-By: Colin Ihrig <cjihrig@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Gerhard Stöbich <deb2001-github@yahoo.de> Reviewed-By: Pietro Marchini <pietro.marchini94@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Benjamin Gruenbaum <benjamingr@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Trivikram Kamat <trivikr.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Daeyeon Jeong <daeyeon.dev@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Ruben Bridgewater <ruben@bridgewater.de> Reviewed-By: Jacob Smith <jacob@frende.me> Reviewed-By: Rafael Gonzaga <rafael.nunu@hotmail.com> Reviewed-By: Darshan Sen <raisinten@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Chemi Atlow <chemi@atlow.co.il> Reviewed-By: Michael Dawson <midawson@redhat.com> Reviewed-By: Paolo Insogna <paolo@cowtech.it> Reviewed-By: LiviaMedeiros <livia@cirno.name> Reviewed-By: Chengzhong Wu <legendecas@gmail.com> Reviewed-By: Yagiz Nizipli <yagiz@nizipli.com> Reviewed-By: Ruy Adorno <ruy@vlt.sh>
This PR tries to address a few concerns raised in nodejs/TSC#1702 that seems small enough that it may get consensus already. This PR:
remove requirement for at-mentioning the collaborators team.nominations" section to "Nominating new Collaborator" section.
This shouldn't block us from discussing making deeper changes to the nomination process, but it should already improve the status quo IMO.
/cc @nodejs/collaborators