(Discuss) Migrate nodejs/help to alternative platforms

[RedYetiDev]

When drafting, the NodeJS/help repository has 631 open issues, mainly requesting basic installation assistance or help with specific libraries.

Considering the high number of issues, it might be beneficial for users to post on the OpenJSF/Node Slack or through a new discourse server. This approach would prevent issues from lingering for years without responses and reduce the backlog of miscellaneous issues to close.

[benjamingr]

Nit, it's officially Node.js (not NodeJS).

As for triage and the help repo there were several discussions around it, I recall @gireeshpunathil and @ovflowd had thoughts/ideas.

I think it would make sense for the triagers team and people who have been doing a lot of triaging/helping over the years like @bnoordhuis and @Trott to meet and discuss and come up with a proposal (and catch everyone up on past efforts).

I've gone ahead and moved this issue to the admin repo as it's about org policies and not core - hope that's ok.

[benjamingr]

See #830 #802 #771 (there are a few others)

[RedYetiDev]

(CC @nodejs/issue-triage)

[mcollina]

The problem is the lack of manpower/volunteers, rather than platform. We might want to think of sunsetting that initiative.

On the tools note, the stalebot actually helps in these scenarios.

[RedYetiDev]

Still, when I go to the help repo, I see many 'invalid' issues (e.g., external library issue, system issue). I think that, via Slack (or some other method), users will have an easier time figuring out solutions rather than waiting with 100s of other issues collecting 'me too' comments.

[ovflowd]

Still, when I go to the help repo, I see many 'invalid' issues (e.g., external library issue, system issue). I think that, via Slack (or some other method), users will have an easier time figuring out solutions rather than waiting with 100s of other issues collecting 'me too' comments.

Unfortunately that's not how it works. People will still open issues here, and now without a help repo they will start opening on node core and/or as discussions.

Not many people want to go through the journey of registering on a Slack workspace.

Not to mention Slack is a horrible format for searching historical data. With issues at least anyone can easily peek at existing data and things get indexed by Google. On Slack we are creating the issue of containerising information and losing such information.

[ovflowd]

Also IMO completely normal that the Node Help repo has that many issues; Core has even more.

A lot of people open issues and then abandon them; or we go back and forth and that process can take time; cleaning up issues also takes time.

@bmuenzenmeyer is also someone that from time to time (afaik) was cleaning up and triaging issues.

It is a tedious and long process; we shouldn't aim for having a low count of issues on the help repository.

[bmuenzenmeyer]

We highlighted this repo two summits ago. See #830
The help repo is a nice safety valve for other parts of the org, but yes, it hinges on reciprocity:

• askers need to ask good questions AND followup to responses
• volunteers need to answer questions.

We've chipped away at a plan, but I'll admit, it's not been a priority of mine of late. I think these are among the next steps.

• ✅ tweak stalebot
• 🔲highlight other platforms in the help repo
• 🔲 create Triage Guide
• 🔲 setup Triage meeting perhaps monthly

[RedYetiDev]

Those all look like good ideas! We should also add a FAQ for issues (E.I. a list of common issues and their fixes), and a guide on how to ask a good question

Also, both Bun and Deno use (I think) Discord for their issues, so maybe we should, along with the help repo, set up another way for users to ask questions, this way, we can keep the repo, while also providing an alternative that most users have access to?

[ovflowd]

Those all look like good ideas! We should also add a FAQ for issues (E.I. a list of common issues and their fixes), and a guide on how to ask a good question

Also, both Bun and Deno use (I think) Discord for their issues, so maybe we should, along with the help repo, set up another way for users to ask questions, this way, we can keep the repo, while also providing an alternative that most users have access to?

I do believe there is also a community Slack.

We could create a Discord server, but who would maintain it? Triagers? TSC? We don't have a Community Committee anymore.

Also, Deno and Bun are companies that have staff. These are probably paid to maintain such platforms...

I doubt we as volunteers would have time to maintain such platforms and there are a lot of caveats.

[RedYetiDev]

True, I was only giving an example. As for now, I've opened a PR to add a guide on what to/not to ask (nodejs/help#4378).

[Trott]

Possibly unpopular opinion, but I think most users would be best served by going to StackOverflow and we should direct people there. Questions there get answers. There's no reason we have to be the ones giving answers. All that matters is that users get answers and that the answers are reasonably good. StackOverflow isn't perfect, but it's as good as anything we'd do ourselves, and we have a hard time keeping momentum going on these things. Let's not do something we don't have to.

If we want to direct people to Slack, the place to go is probably the #ask-anything channel on OpenJS Slack. We don't need something more specific than that, in my opinion, and creating another silo just means it will be one more place that questions likely eventually get ignored.

From my perspective, the most important thing we can do is low effort: We should keep https://github.com/nodejs/node/blob/main/.github/SUPPORT.md up to date with good information.

[gireeshpunathil]

help repo has proven to be crucial in centralising unpaid, general node.js help, leading to improved adoption of our technology. lets don't shut it down for reasons such as huge backlog. in fact the volume shows folks know where to log issues and seek help and genuinely look upon this repo!

i think huge backlog is our (project) problem to solve. i like approaches mentioned by @bmuenzenmeyer in #860 (comment) . there could be other ways too - such as:

• incentivising volunteers
• building comprehensive diagnostic docs
• identify bleeding patterns and address those in core

[ovflowd]

100% agree with @gireeshpunathil

I feel that we can close this issue and if we still want to eventually support another platform for community bonding be it for support or community reasons, that can be opened on another issue.

As pointed before, the feasibility of us having a Discord server that is maintained, active, healthy and a safe space is extremely time consuming and would require volunteers for the matter.

Now, is it doable? Maybe.

[RedYetiDev]

Great! I'm closing this issue now, and I'll be looking forward to the future of Node.js!

[gireeshpunathil]

glad that you brought this up @RedYetiDev - as it has generated some (needed) reflections!

[Trott]

Here's an idea if someone wants to implement it: Adjust the GitHub action that handles stale issues in the help repo so that it leaves a link to StackOverflow and/or the #ask-anything channel in the OpenJS Slack if the issue doesn't have any comments. In other words, if someone asked a question and got no responses at all, let the user know where else they might go for help.

For this to be useful though, we'll also need to shorten the time before we flag stale issues. Currently, it's 11 months. I'd reduce that to at least 6 months, and honestly, I'd reduce it to 7 days. If no one has responded to a question in seven days, mark it as stale and direct people to other places.

Another option is to create a separate job to leave that comment rather than attaching it to the stale issue job, but I do think waiting 11 months to mark something as stale is too long for a help repo. If someone asks a question, it's very unlikely that they are well-served by getting a response 10 months later.

[RedYetiDev]

I can implement part of this.

[Trott]

I can implement part of this.

An additional thing might be to synch up the recommendations with what's in the README for the help repo. It recommends the #nodejs channel, for example, rather than #ask-anything. Either one is fine in my opinion, but I think #ask-anything is slightly better because almost nothing can be off topic. (Maybe include both channels?) Anyway, whatever is in the README and whatever is in the automated comment should probably be the same.

[RedYetiDev]

I misread your message, I see the "no responses" part now. I'll add a separate workflow for that.

[RedYetiDev]

nodejs/help#4379
nodejs/node#52642