MSC2781: Remove the reply fallbacks from the specification #2781

deepbluev7 · 2020-09-18T21:47:03Z

Since I hit another fallback bug today, I thought I should finally propose this. Let's see, how this goes.

Rendered

Implementations:

react-sdk

See also:

MSC3644: Extensible Events: Edits and replies #3644

fixes matrix-org/matrix-spec#368

fixes matrix-org/matrix-spec#350 ?

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner nicolas.werner@hotmail.de

FCP tickyboxes

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

…possible) Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

KitsuneRal

I understand the controversy but I really think that fallbacks bring more problems (especially in terms of the content getting stuck in messages not belonging to authors) than solutions to those who try to stay as simple as possible. The requirement to strip the fallbacks in replies raises the bar of implementing them to the point where half of the ecosystem chooses not to deal with that. Besides, the fallbacks are a huge HTML foot in the door where plaintext messengers have literally no chance of compliance. So yes, please, let's go with it.

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

ShadowJonathan

For the glory of the Emperor: Down with mx-reply!

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

aaronraimist · 2021-10-17T06:03:53Z

Implementation: matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk#6964

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

clokep · 2024-06-05T00:10:15Z

@deepbluev7 Thanks for your effort on clarifying and improving this MSC. I think it is much easier to read now and clearer what the proposed changes are! 🎉

@mscbot resolve General clarity

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

richvdh

some very minor editorial points, and a question.

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

richvdh · 2024-06-18T13:40:25Z

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

+16 are listed as not supporting replies (updated January 2022):
+
+- Element Android: Relies on the reply fallback.
+- Element iOS: [Does not support rich replies](https://github.com/vector-im/element-ios/issues/3517)


... and therefore relies on the reply fallback? So is the same as Element Android? or different?

When that was written, yes. Although I didn't investigate more since I don't own any iOS device. But it seems Element iOS might have some support now based on element-hq/element-ios#6155 ?

Thanks dbkr, richvdh and clokep! Co-authored-by: David Baker <dbkr@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Patrick Cloke <clokep@users.noreply.github.com>

Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com>

Co-authored-by: Patrick Cloke <clokep@users.noreply.github.com>

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

turt2live · 2024-06-25T23:38:58Z

proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

+
+## Proposal
+
+Remove the [rich reply fallback from the


All of those examples are from a time before the deprecation policy was enacted in Matrix 1.1, fwiw. This MSC introduces a technically breaking change to clients, which necessitates deprecation first at a minimum. The spec instructs clients which do support rich replies on how to handle the fallback (strip it), and implies that the module is optional. By removing the fallback, we're saying that clients must support rich replies in order to maintain conversation context - something which is currently optional (and not even a SHOULD optional).

The MSC addresses the context piece a bit, but doesn't address the breaking change. As such, this needs to go through deprecation first to manage the breaking change, then removal at least 1 version later as per the policy. This does add additional overhead - feedback regarding that is best placed in a dedicated MSC which aims to change the deprecation policy.

turt2live

seemingly my github tabs got confused and submitted my review without asking the status associated with it.

Apologies for the slow review here - authenticated media has been taking up all my time.

turt2live · 2024-06-25T23:40:31Z

@mscbot resolve Mention intentional mentions

Co-authored-by: Travis Ralston <travpc@gmail.com> Co-authored-by: Andrew Morgan <1342360+anoadragon453@users.noreply.github.com>

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

turt2live · 2024-10-16T16:30:31Z

I'm still concerned about the jump to removal here, but not enough to prevent this MSC from moving forwards:

@mscbot resolve We must deprecate before removal

I have unticked my box though to get broader alignment from the remaining SCT members on this.

mscbot · 2024-10-31T16:16:02Z

🔔 This is now entering its final comment period, as per the review above. 🔔

officialdakari · 2024-11-01T20:01:25Z

Implementation: officialdakari/Extera

mscbot · 2024-11-05T16:16:13Z

The final comment period, with a disposition to merge, as per the review above, is now complete.

review is not considered blocking for FCP

* MSC2781: Down with the fallbacks Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Add a note about dropping the html requirement Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Add an unstable prefix for removed fallbacks. Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Add a section about fallbacks not being properly specified. Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Add appendix about which clients do not support replies (and why, if possible) Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Correct weechat status Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Add another alternative Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Document a few more issues with fallbacks Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Update client status, remove proposal for edits and try to turn down the language a bit Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Remove mistaken reference to the Qt renderer Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Try to make motivation a bit clearer in the proposal Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * How do anchors work? Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Drop reference to issues with edit fallbacks Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Typos Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Address review comments Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * More edits Move edit section to a single sentence in "interaction with other features". Spell out why the IRC example is there. Reword body stripping. Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Implementation traps Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Apply suggestions from code review Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com> * Add dates to client status list Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Mention pushrules proposal in the alternatives section Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> * Update proposal to 2024 This also addresses several review comments from clokep and Travis. * Be explicit about removal * Apply suggestions from code review Thanks dbkr, richvdh and clokep! Co-authored-by: David Baker <dbkr@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Patrick Cloke <clokep@users.noreply.github.com> * Apply suggestions from code review Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com> * Update proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md Co-authored-by: Patrick Cloke <clokep@users.noreply.github.com> * Apply suggestions from code review Co-authored-by: Travis Ralston <travpc@gmail.com> Co-authored-by: Andrew Morgan <1342360+anoadragon453@users.noreply.github.com> * Simplify wording around invalid html and potential issues Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> --------- Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de> Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: David Baker <dbkr@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Patrick Cloke <clokep@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Travis Ralston <travpc@gmail.com> Co-authored-by: Andrew Morgan <1342360+anoadragon453@users.noreply.github.com>

deepbluev7 force-pushed the drop-the-fallbacks branch from bc40dab to 4ec0095 Compare September 18, 2020 21:55

MSC2781: Down with the fallbacks

6868738

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

deepbluev7 force-pushed the drop-the-fallbacks branch from 4ec0095 to 6868738 Compare September 18, 2020 21:56

turt2live added kind:maintenance MSC which clarifies/updates existing spec proposal A matrix spec change proposal proposal-in-review labels Sep 18, 2020

turt2live reviewed Sep 18, 2020

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deepbluev7 added 5 commits September 19, 2020 00:35

Add a note about dropping the html requirement

8d8b38d

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

Add an unstable prefix for removed fallbacks.

94cffdc

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

Add a section about fallbacks not being properly specified.

18a2732

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

Add appendix about which clients do not support replies (and why, if …

8e7c44b

…possible) Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

Correct weechat status

ff76870

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

KitsuneRal approved these changes Oct 10, 2020

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ShadowJonathan approved these changes Mar 9, 2021

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deepbluev7 added 2 commits May 10, 2021 22:25

Add another alternative

74dc8d8

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

Document a few more issues with fallbacks

c8e4377

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

turt2live added the needs-implementation This MSC does not have a qualifying implementation for the SCT to review. The MSC cannot enter FCP. label Jun 8, 2021

deepbluev7 mentioned this pull request Aug 30, 2021

Reply + /me emote messes up the message body element-hq/element-android#3919

Open

turt2live force-pushed the old_master branch from e895827 to dca99ee Compare August 30, 2021 22:34

MazeChaZer mentioned this pull request Oct 5, 2021

Reply fallbacks leak room history matrix-org/matrix-spec#368

Open

Mikaela mentioned this pull request Oct 5, 2021

Matrix: apparently reply sources reveal prior messages to new users in E2EE rooms Mikaela/mikaela.github.io#250

Closed

deepbluev7 mentioned this pull request Oct 14, 2021

MSC3051: A scalable relation format #3051

Open

aaronraimist mentioned this pull request Oct 17, 2021

Stop sending reply and edit fallbacks (MSC2781) matrix-org/matrix-react-sdk#6964

Closed

This was referenced Nov 27, 2021

add function to strip reply fallbacks matrix-nio/matrix-nio#284

Open

feat: ✨ add ability to reply with text messages imbev/simplematrixbotlib#89

Open

HarHarLinks mentioned this pull request Dec 22, 2021

Replying to Notify Everyone (@room) Triggers Another Notification element-hq/element-web#20334

Closed

This was referenced Jan 13, 2022

MSC3440: Threading via m.thread relation #3440

Merged

MSC2589: Improve replies #2589

Closed

turt2live changed the title ~~MSC2781: Deprecate the (reply) fallbacks in the Matrix specification~~ MSC2781: Deprecate edit & reply fallbacks in the Matrix specification Jan 14, 2022

clokep reviewed Jun 5, 2024

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dbkr reviewed Jun 11, 2024

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richvdh reviewed Jun 18, 2024

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williamhorning mentioned this pull request Jun 20, 2024

implement way better matrix support williamhorning/bolt#66

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deepbluev7 and others added 3 commits June 25, 2024 17:44

Apply suggestions from code review

a66f24d

Thanks dbkr, richvdh and clokep! Co-authored-by: David Baker <dbkr@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com> Co-authored-by: Patrick Cloke <clokep@users.noreply.github.com>

Apply suggestions from code review

23dd267

Co-authored-by: Richard van der Hoff <1389908+richvdh@users.noreply.github.com>

Update proposals/2781-down-with-the-fallbacks.md

1ad224e

Co-authored-by: Patrick Cloke <clokep@users.noreply.github.com>

turt2live reviewed Jun 25, 2024

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turt2live previously requested changes Jun 25, 2024

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deepbluev7 and others added 2 commits October 1, 2024 16:48

Apply suggestions from code review

2da1ac7

Co-authored-by: Travis Ralston <travpc@gmail.com> Co-authored-by: Andrew Morgan <1342360+anoadragon453@users.noreply.github.com>

Simplify wording around invalid html and potential issues

5c9de13

Signed-off-by: Nicolas Werner <nicolas.werner@hotmail.de>

mscbot removed the unresolved-concerns This proposal has at least one outstanding concern label Oct 16, 2024

mscbot added final-comment-period This MSC has entered a final comment period in interest to approval, postpone, or delete in 5 days. and removed proposed-final-comment-period Currently awaiting signoff of a majority of team members in order to enter the final comment period. labels Oct 31, 2024

mscbot added finished-final-comment-period and removed disposition-merge final-comment-period This MSC has entered a final comment period in interest to approval, postpone, or delete in 5 days. labels Nov 5, 2024

turt2live merged commit 843eb6d into matrix-org:old_master Nov 5, 2024

turt2live added spec-pr-missing Proposal has been implemented and is being used in the wild but hasn't yet been added to the spec and removed finished-final-comment-period labels Nov 5, 2024

t3chguy mentioned this pull request Nov 7, 2024

Remove reply fallbacks as per merged MSC2781 element-hq/element-web#28406

Open

bnjbvr mentioned this pull request Nov 13, 2024

Add the reply fallback to the InReplyToDetails for use while loading. matrix-org/matrix-rust-sdk#4148

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MSC2781: Remove the reply fallbacks from the specification #2781

MSC2781: Remove the reply fallbacks from the specification #2781

deepbluev7 commented Sep 18, 2020 •

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MSC2781: Remove the reply fallbacks from the specification #2781

MSC2781: Remove the reply fallbacks from the specification #2781

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